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Chamber and committees

Justice Committee

Meeting date: Tuesday, February 19, 2013


Contents


Policing (Correspondence)

The Convener

Item 2 on the agenda is correspondence from the Scottish Police Authority. Members have that before them. The first piece of correspondence is a response to our request for sight of the codicil referred to by the SPA chair in earlier correspondence regarding responsibility for human resources and finance; the second relates to staffing of the SPA’s interim project team.

I suggest that, when in the future we write requesting information on policing, we agree to a deadline for a response, with the expectation that the matter can be included on the agenda of the next meeting, so that there is no get-out clause. It was probably a slip on our part, but I do not think that we did that this time.

I would like to hear members’ views on the invitation in the first letter to meet members of the SPA board to discuss, among other things, plans for engagement.

Is that the letter from John McCroskie?

It is the one from Vic Emery.

Graeme Pearson

The letter dated 4 February does not supply to us the codicil on which we received information from Vic Emery. As I understand it, a codicil is a document that amends but does not replace previous arrangements. We have a letter dated the day on which the clerks requested the update and which quotes two sentences, but I want to see the original evidence to which Vic Emery referred. I still think that we need to receive that evidence.

I will take a point from Graeme. I am sorry—Colin Keir. I keep calling you “Graeme”. I need to change my glasses.

I do not think that the round table is a terribly grand idea.

We are on to that bit.

Colin Keir

The board members are going to report to the sub-committee, and the round table suggests that they are looking almost for parity at this time. That should not be the case; they should be here to answer questions on the grounds that the sub-committee is there to examine.

Yes. “Codicil” is a special word; a codicil is an addition to a will. I think that we should pursue that. It is not emails; the word has been chosen specially—it is not casual.

Graeme Pearson

In the minutes of the SPA board, the chief constable makes reference to a similar piece of correspondence as a “codicil”. There must be something specific meant, which we are entitled to read for ourselves rather than having an excerpt presented to us.

The Convener

We should say that we are not content, that the word “codicil” has a very particular meaning—it has a legal status—and that we would like clarification that this is all that there is and that there is nothing else. We should say something as straightforward as that.

Roderick Campbell

I agree with what Graeme Pearson and you have said on that point, convener. We need clarity.

I am a bit concerned about the general format of the round-table discussion. I do not know who is going to be on the new parliamentary sub-committee. There is to be an early meeting to get it up and running, but I am not sure that it is the right way forward to go in with a large number of board members.

John Finnie

To pick up on your earlier comment, convener, there is a danger that if we just ask them to confirm they will just confirm, whereas we want to see the actual correspondence. That may be contained in a letter with other unrelated matters, but we want to see the particular reference topped and tailed from source.

The Convener

I am content with that. It is not what one would call a “codicil”.

I am not sure whether

“Board members would like to invite the Committee to consider an early round table discussion”

refers to the sub-committee or to this committee.

It refers to this committee.

The Convener

My view is that we should say no. No other board gets to give us an informal briefing. Any board is entitled to approach individual members of the committee and to brief them or whatever, but I think that that would be inappropriate because we do not have the Scottish Legal Aid Board, for example, coming to brief us. It might look as though we were making a special case and that something was being done in private inappropriately, so my feeling is that we should not do that. What is the committee’s feeling?

I agree.

I agree very strongly.

The Convener

Thank you very much. I am content for Graeme Pearson—if Jenny Marra does not mind, as he has got his teeth into this—to see the letter in order to see whether he is happy with the terms of it before it goes out. You both have the background to this. Is that all right?

Yes.

The Convener

You can have a wee look at it before it goes out to see whether we have nailed the matter firmly enough.

We now move on to the second letter. What are members’ comments on the second letter? It is an update on interim staffing and so on, which we had asked for. Let us start with John Finnie and then Colin Keir—I have got your name right at last.

Given all the talk about senior appointments and, not least, the concentration on human resources, it is ironic that someone who is styled the head of public affairs felt the need to communicate with us.

You have stolen Colin Keir’s thunder.

11:15

It is the interim head of public affairs.

That issue in itself is worth a few questions.

Actually, we did not ask for that letter—it was just sent to us.

Graeme Pearson

I was going to make that point. It seems that the SPA has sent us the letter of its own accord. John Finnie is right to say that an interim head of public affairs is an unusual source for such information; a chief executive would be a normal source for such a document. The situation reflects the concerns that we are rehearsing week on week about what is going on.

Colin Keir

The situation takes me back to what we said about a round-table discussion. Downgrading the person who writes to us is—I will choose my words as carefully as I can—almost disrespectful to the committee and the parliamentary function. I take some degree of offence at somebody in such a position writing to us, when Vic Emery should have communicated with us.

The letter was unsolicited—it is not as if we wrote and got this chap replying to us.

Yes, but the letter has come from somewhere.

Alison McInnes

I understand that we have received the letter in response to the discussion in the public domain about the appointments. I turn to the substance of the letter rather than who sent it. There is concern about the lack of transparency over the appointments, which is exactly why it is important to get the sub-committee up and running as quickly as possible. There are concerns about how the board is developing and the informal way in which it is being built up.

The Convener

Even if we accept that things are somewhat accelerated, and I think that we agree on the need for that, the letter—I might even call it a codicil—seems like a bit of a public relations exercise.

We are content that we will write back to the SPA, but we will not write about the second letter, will we? We do not want to do anything about that. We will just note it.

The policing sub-committee might wish to consider the letter.

Jenny Marra

I would like to note the concern that external consultants are being brought in on what I understand is an inflated daily rate of £750 when major cuts are being made to the service and a lot of back-office staff are in danger of losing their jobs.

The Convener

That matter is not before the committee at the moment. I note that you have an email about the issue, but we are not taking evidence. You have got that on the record, which will do for those involved. I have no doubt that they are following what we are saying. We note your concerns, which you have put on the record.

We will move on; the main thing is to deal with the codicil, which has not been produced in form.