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Chamber and committees

Subordinate Legislation Committee, 17 Jan 2006

Meeting date: Tuesday, January 17, 2006


Contents


Delegated Powers Scrutiny


Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

The Convener (Dr Sylvia Jackson):

I welcome members to the second meeting in 2006 of the Subordinate Legislation Committee. Gordon Jackson will be with us, although he will be a bit late. I remind all members to switch off their mobile phones.

We continue last week's scrutiny of the delegated powers in the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. We asked the Executive for further clarification on the use of the emergency affirmative 28-day procedure, and we spelled out our concerns over how that procedure might be used. Members have the Executive's explanation in front of them. It has considered each of the various areas in sections 1, 2, 3 and 8 that we highlighted and has explained why it thinks that it would be appropriate to use that procedure. Since we mentioned the matter, the Executive has also discussed the possibility of using the negative procedure.

The committee has various options as to how to proceed. One option would be to take the procedure used in section 1 as an example: normally, the draft affirmative procedure would be used, but rather than leave things there, we could ask that, if the 28-day emergency procedure was used, we should at least get some clarification in the order as to why that route was taken. I am open to members' ideas.

Mr Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP):

That proposal is helpful. It would least be an improvement, in that the Executive would be required to give that explanation. However, that does not answer our original, central point, which was that it would be open to the Executive to instigate the 28-day procedure ad nauseam, without Parliament ever having the opportunity to agree or disagree with that approach. I am not sure that I can see a way around the situation under the present set-up. Perhaps this demonstrates why we are considering the possibility of a specific emergency procedure in our inquiry into the regulatory framework. This is a classic example of why such a procedure might be useful in resolving such difficulties.

We have a number of options. We could leave things as they are; we could have a beefed-up or enhanced 28-day procedure, as the convener has suggested; we could perhaps use the annulment procedure under certain circumstances; or we could scrutinise draft instruments. We could make a variety of proposals, although I am not sure which would be best or how all those suggestions could be brought together. Perhaps the lead committee could consider the matter in some detail.

The Executive has to give way on the use of the straightforward 28-day procedure. As the convener suggested, it must at the very least provide enhanced information. That would be the absolute minimum.

The Convener:

I should clarify that, as I understand it, section 1 suggests the use of the draft affirmative procedure with the possibility of using the 28-day facility. That is already being suggested, but the Executive has not included anything similar to the order-making powers in the Food and Environment Protection Act 1985, under which the Executive would have to clarify why it was laying an order under the 28-day emergency procedure.

I accept that. I do not have the bill in front of me but I remember that, in other sections, the draft affirmative procedure is not used.

That is correct—it is not used in all instances.

That is of more concern.

Yes. Does Ken Macintosh have any concerns?

Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab):

No. I am happy with the powers in the bill. It is a question of balance. We are talking about emergency situations, and we need to get the balance right between expecting the Government to respond to an emergency and ensuring that Parliament has powers to scrutinise the actions that are taken. Given the animal health scares that are around at the moment, the emphasis has to be on responding appropriately to an emergency. I think that the committee's suggestions will be welcomed by the Executive.

Mr Adam Ingram (South of Scotland) (SNP):

Paragraph 5 of our legal brief says that the Executive acknowledges that the negative procedure might be appropriate, even though its use might breach the 21-day rule more often than not. However, at least that option would give us some sort of scrutiny, which is the nub of our concerns over the issue.

What is the nature of the undertaking that the Executive has given? Has it given us any undertaking?

The Convener:

I understand from the Executive's response—we have already had this explanation twice from the Executive—that it is trying its utmost to have the best parliamentary scrutiny and, at the same time, the ability to respond quickly to emergencies. Obviously, that is what we want it to do.

Our concern is that under the emergency affirmative 28-day procedure, orders can be laid but the Executive need do nothing further. The 28 days may elapse, and the Executive could, if it wanted to extend the 28-day period, introduce the relevant measure in Parliament. However, the Executive does not have to do that; it could let the 28 days lapse and then lay another order under the 28-day emergency procedure.

The committee accepts that, in its response, the Executive indicates that it considers the emergency affirmative 28-day procedure, with as much scrutiny as possible, to be the best way to proceed, but the committee has concerns about the procedure.

Mr Maxwell:

Fundamentally, the procedure is the problem. We all accept that emergencies have to be dealt with quickly in the interests of public health; we have no argument with that. The emergency affirmative 28-day procedure has been used before. However, it has been used extensively in the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Bill—this is the first time that I have seen it used so much. Perhaps that is why we have had so much debate on the bill, although, as I say, the procedure has been used before.

Ultimately, there will be no completely satisfactory outcome to the debate. We do not have a problem with the need to do something about animal health—we have a problem with the procedure. There has to be an emergency procedure, but we do not have one as such. That is the fundamental problem.

The Convener:

I agree. If we were to extend the approach that is used in section 1 and recommend the draft affirmative procedure, we would be indicating that we want as much of the matter as possible to be brought before Parliament so that Parliament knows about it. We would still give the Executive the option of using the emergency affirmative 28-day procedure if it had to act very quickly. The committee takes on board that the Executive says that the emergency procedure is the best possible way of dealing with fast spreading diseases. That is where we are at.

If the committee agrees, we could write back to the Executive to say that we agree with that option as long as the maximum safeguards are in place. We could then report to the lead committee on why we did that. In fact, we might simply have to include that in our report on the bill.

We should report that the maximum level of parliamentary scrutiny should always be used, depending on the circumstances.

One way of doing that is through the emergency affirmative 28-day procedure, but we should say that we would like there to be clarification in any order of why that procedure was being used. Are we agreed?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener:

Section 18 deals with mutilation. The committee confirmed that it would prefer a statutory requirement to consult to be included in the bill, because mutilation is such a sensitive area. The Executive has noted that, which is fine.

Section 34 deals with animal welfare codes. The committee will remember that the power to revoke will need to be used if a new code replaces an old one. The Executive has acknowledged that it is not clear from the bill as drafted that the power to revoke will attract the same procedure. Therefore, the Executive is considering lodging a suitable amendment. Do members agree with that approach?

Members indicated agreement.


Joint Inspection of Children's Services and Inspection of Social Work Services (Scotland) Bill: as amended at Stage 2

The Convener:

We have made quite a bit of progress on the bill—the stage 3 debate will be held on Thursday afternoon.

We had questions about section 3(1), on the power to make regulations for the purposes of a joint inspection, and section 5(3), on the power to make regulations for the exercise of functions under section 5(1). We were concerned that the power to create offences for the enforcement of the regulations was delegated to the regulations themselves. The Executive has responded to our concerns by limiting the offences in the bill. Are members content?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener:

Section 7, on interpretation, enables "social work services functions" to be prescribed by regulations. The committee was concerned that that definition, which is critical to the interpretation of the bill, had been left to regulations. The bill has since been amended to define those functions. Are members content?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener:

Section 7(3) deals with the power to amend the list of enactments in section 7(2). The relevant amendment that has been made to the bill again relates to allowing the definition of "social work services functions" to be included in the bill. It is consequential on the amendment made to section 7(1). Are members content?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener:

New section 8A deals with ancillary provision. We were concerned at stage 1 that the bill did not include provision for consequential or transitional arrangements as a result of repeals under section 8. The Executive is content that it does not need to provide for transitional arrangements; however, it has amended the bill to allow for consequential arrangements. Are members content?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener:

Section 1(5A) deals with codes of practice. The committee's attention has been drawn to this provision, which provides that persons and bodies who carry out inspections should have regard to guidance that is issued by ministers. That will include matters that relate to access to confidential information. Obviously, many policy issues arise, but I do not know that there are any technical issues. Are members content?

Members indicated agreement.