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Chamber and committees

Justice 1 Committee, 01 Oct 2002

Meeting date: Tuesday, October 1, 2002


Contents


Work Programme

The Convener:

We are doing really well, because we are 15 minutes ahead of ourselves. We will consider what lies ahead of us in our forward work programme. We will not go into the nitty-gritty of our inquiry into alternatives to custody, because that is an issue for next week, but we have to address whether the committee wants the Executive to respond to our report. If we want that, that will cut down the time that we have to produce the report, because the Executive requires eight weeks in which to respond, and we must bear in mind the fact that the Parliament will be dissolved on 31 March. Alternatively, we must decide whether we are content to issue our report without looking for a response, which would give us an extra eight weeks.

We must also consider whether we should meet fortnightly into March. We are one of the few committees that meets every week—sometimes we meet twice a week. The committee should consider that point in thinking about the work programme.

Michael Matheson:

I am not too worried about getting a response from the Executive. I would like to undertake an inquiry into alternatives to custody that produces new ideas as opposed to examining what currently exists. I would be happy for a report to be produced by SPICe or whomever.

The Convener:

We will address that issue next week. The point is that the committee decided on a remit—I will let you see it so that you can raise it next week—and, unfortunately, it would not be appropriate to change it. However, your position is that we should not seek a response. Does anybody think otherwise?

Donald Gorrie:

I know that bills fall at the end of a session, but do reports fall at the end of a session? If we write a report and it is not considered by this Executive, will it be considered by the next Executive, or will it fall down a big black hole somewhere?

The Convener:

The next Executive does not have to consider it, but the report will be in the public domain and it would be a pretty foolish Administration that ignored it. We do not even know what the complexion of the next justice committees will be. We can do the groundwork and leave matters to our successors.

Donald Gorrie:

I favour using the time to produce a really good report. Whatever it says in the remit, we should take up the point that Michael Matheson raised. I think that it would be more efficacious—party politics aside—if a new Administration, of whatever composition, and a new minister had copies of a good report on their desks. With all due respect, if we get a response to a report a few weeks before an election, it is likely to be coloured by the headline in the Daily Record—or rather, by what the Executive fears might be the headline in the Daily Record.

The Convener:

If there are no other views, we will not look for a response. That moves that piece of work on.

I ask members to indicate whether they are content to conclude the inquiry into legal aid by taking evidence from the Minister for Justice on the outstanding issues early in 2003. That would seal off that piece of work.

Michael Matheson:

I am not sure that I agree with that proposal. Some changes to the legal aid system have been proposed and I understand that discussions are continuing within the Law Society of Scotland about certain rates for certain pieces of work. I also understand that those discussions are at an advanced stage and are likely to be concluded in the near future. I am conscious that our report may be overtaken by events. I would like to know what stage those discussions have reached and when it is likely that a recommendation will be made to ministers. I would have thought that the committee would want to reflect on the changes that are being proposed to ministers before we publish our report.

The Convener:

I seem to recall—although it is almost lost in the mists of time—that we produced an interim report, which we must finalise.

I draw Michael Matheson's attention to the list of outstanding issues for our legal aid inquiry—one of which he raised—that is in the paper on our provisional work programme. Perhaps I should chase up those issues with the clerks and get time scales for the responses. That would allow us to decide when to hear from the minister. Are members happy with that suggestion?

We may require time to consider the changes that are being proposed before we hear from the minister. We may need to consider fresh evidence.

The Convener:

Therefore, members are not content to conclude the inquiry by taking evidence on the outstanding issues. If possible, we want to hear from the minister and to resolve some of those outstanding issues before we conclude the inquiry. Let us see where we get with the list first, following which we will consider whether to take more evidence.

Before we jump ahead and issue a report.

The report has drifted a bit.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:

May I mention a point with which I have been struggling over the years? Civil servants keep coming up with different legal aid orders for this, that and the next thing, in bits and pieces throughout the year. I have repeatedly said that those orders should be introduced in one go. However, civil servants will not do that.

We have received a letter about that; I refer members to paper J1/02/32/10. Are you talking about consolidation rather than about automatic uprating?

I am not talking about uprating—I am talking about dealing with the orders together, as that would allow us to take all the different factors into account at the same time. However, the civil servants will not do that.

We recommend that approach in our report.

We are entitled to pursue that issue, because I have a strong suspicion that civil servants are not taking that approach.

The Convener:

I want to deal with the matters that are still in train in correspondence with the Executive, but I will be seeking sharp answers. The report has been drifting for a long time. I thought that much of this would be resolved by now and it is not.

I am not sure where the community legal services issue has got to. We have been taking evidence and consulting.

The Convener:

We are getting an awful lot of that. We want to tighten things up. We will talk about it and I will come back to you when I report next week on what we have done.

Members are getting out of school 20 minutes early today.

In committee room 1 at 10 o'clock tomorrow there is a joint meeting of the justice committees to take evidence on stage 2 of the budget process. Could members let the clerks know if they cannot attend, because we must be quorate?

I give you my apologies.

I have a committee meeting at that time so I cannot attend.

I have to leave early because I have to give a speech.

I cannot recall what I am doing.

Michael is not up mountains. Three of us will be sufficient to man the barricades.

If there is a problem, come and find me at the Transport and the Environment Committee.

The Convener:

Okay. Thank you all very much.

The next meeting will be on Tuesday 8 October when we will consider the draft report on regulation of the legal profession and responses to the inquiry into alternatives to custody. At that stage, I will remind members of the remit and we can discuss it then.

Meeting closed at 16:10.


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