Justice 2 Committee, 03 Feb 2004

Meeting date: Tuesday, February 3, 2004

Official Report 125KB pdf

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Energy Bill (UK Legislation)

Item 2 concerns the Energy Bill, which is currently before the United Kingdom Parliament. I welcome Hugh Henry, the Deputy Minister for Justice, and colleagues from his department to our meeting.

I am sorry, Mr Henry, that we had to delay your participation because of what I think we are all agreed is an unfortunate incident, but I felt that it should be addressed at the earliest opportunity. Would you care to make some introductory comments about the bill?

There are two justice elements to the bill. The first is to be found in chapter 3 of part 1 of the bill, which sets up an independent statutory civil nuclear police authority. The authority will oversee a new civil nuclear constabulary—the CNC—which the bill also sets up and which will be reconstituted from the present United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority constabulary. The CNC's primary role will be, just as before, to protect civil nuclear material at certain licensed sites and in transit. Those sites include Dounreay and Chapelcross in Scotland. The constabulary has full police powers within its jurisdiction, but it has very little contact with the public or with general crime, for which regional forces continue to have responsibility.

Although nuclear security is reserved, the constabulary elements are included in the Sewel memorandum because only the Scottish Parliament can determine the powers and privileges of a constable in Scotland. The Parliament could thus competently confer devolved functions on the constabulary, but only in respect of the rare occasions on which it becomes involved in civilian policing activities. Similarly, when inspections take place in relation to those civilian functions, they will be a devolved matter, and if members of the CNC were to enter into collaboration agreements with other Scottish forces in relation to civilian policing matters, those agreements would be devolved.

At present the constabulary is overseen by a non-statutory police authority, which is in effect a committee of the UKAEA. That authority operates in Scotland under reserved powers, has no legal authority and is only indirectly accountable to the secretary of state. The proposals seek to separate the constabulary from the UKAEA and to reconstitute it as a stand-alone force, in order to make it independent of the nuclear industry. The bill provides for a modern statutory framework that is appropriate to the needs of a modern police force. No practical change is proposed to the basic role of the constabulary, to employees' conditions or to the nuclear security regime.

Scottish police forces work well with the constabulary in Scotland. The Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland and Her Majesty's inspectorate of constabulary for Scotland support the measures, which strengthen the independence of the policing arrangements for nuclear sites and are broadly in line with what has been done in relation to other special police forces in Britain.

The second justice element of the bill can be found in chapter 1 of part 2, which contains provisions for the establishment of an offshore renewable energy zone. Provision is made for the extension of police powers to investigate alleged offences that occur on or around any renewable energy installation that might be situated in internal or territorial waters or in waters that are in the renewable energy zone. The proposals on the policing of such installations form part of the provisions for the establishment of a comprehensive legal framework to support renewable energy development beyond territorial waters and to augment the regime for inshore waters.

Thank you very much for that. Members have received an explanatory note on the bill with their papers. Are there any questions for the minister?

I have a question, but I am not sure whether the minister will be able to answer it, as it refers to a matter that might be in another minister's remit—

We are all impressed that Maureen Macmillan has a question on a matter that has baffled the rest of us.

What is a fast-track transfer from a nuclear site? Of course, the police would have to accompany any such transfer.

Where is the reference to fast-track transfers?

I presume that Maureen Macmillan is referring to the transfer of licensed nuclear material between installations. What is her specific question?

I cannot find the reference now. I noticed it when I was skimming through the papers and wondered when such transfers would happen.

I think that I can say with confidence that the rest of us cannot help.

I am being directed to paragraph 7(c)(i) of the Executive memorandum.

Yes. The paragraph says:

"‘Fast-track' transfer will be allowed when there is a new operator for a nuclear site".

Does that refer to the transfer of ownership of or responsibility for the site or to the transfer of material? I had visions of nuclear stuff being rushed up and down the road with a police escort on motorbikes.

If the question is about the transfer of material between installations, I can confirm that the CNC would have a security role. It would liaise with the local constabulary in each area if there was a need to supervise the transfer of material between different areas.

Fast-track transfers of ownership of the site are an entirely different matter, on which it would be beyond my competence to comment.

It was just that the use of the word "transfer" led me to imagine that it referred to the physical transfer of nuclear waste.

The word "transfer" seems to refer to the operation, rather than the ownership of the site. It is about transfers from one operator to another.

The transfer of ownership—or the fast-tracking of a change in ownership—would be a matter for other ministers.

I agree. When I asked the question, I thought that the matter was probably not in your remit. Thank you very much for your contribution to my fund of knowledge, such as it is.

The minister referred to the existing arrangements vis-à-vis our police forces in Scotland and how they relate to the Scottish Executive's role. I just want to be clear that the proposed new civil nuclear police authority will work smoothly in the practical sense and that it will have regard to what happens already. In other words, following the creation of the new authority, will the minister feel free to have a dialogue with ACPOS on any issues that might arise in relation to how the new authority operates within Scotland?

We do not anticipate any change to the operational procedures or to the efficiency with which the constables operate. There are local arrangements, and dialogue with ACPOS and others will continue. We would expect to be apprised of any concerns that arise from discussions between the relevant agencies. I want to stress that the proposed change will be a seamless transition; it is a change of organisational structures rather than of operational procedures. We will liaise closely with our colleagues in the UK Government on the accountability of the civil nuclear police force.

Thank you. Are there any other questions on the issue? Does the committee have any objection to Westminster legislating on what is a devolved matter?

No.

Technically, in such a situation it would be competent for the committee to draft and publish a report, but I think that the Parliament will debate the matter tomorrow—if my memory serves me correctly. Therefore, it would be totally impractical for the committee to produce a report. Does the committee agree simply to note the bill?

Members indicated agreement.