Plenary, 06 Feb 2003

Meeting date: Thursday, February 6, 2003

Official Report 697KB pdf

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Local Government Bill

Our first item of business today is a debate on motion S1M-3833, in the name of Mr Andy Kerr, on the Local Government Bill, which is proposed United Kingdom legislation.

The measures that we are here to debate represent the final step in a three-step process. That process is intended to ensure that people at the front line of public services in Scotland get the terms and conditions of service and the pension arrangements that they deserve.

We are here to deliver the improvements in public service delivery that the people of Scotland expect and deserve. We need to ensure that we work with those at the front line to achieve that, because their support and hard work are crucial to the process. That is why, in November, we agreed the protocol to end the two-tier work force in all future public-private partnership projects in Scotland. It is also why, in January, we asked the Parliament to approve the Executive's taking powers through the Local Government in Scotland Bill for ministers to issue guidance to local authorities about best value and contractual practice.

We intend to use those powers to tell local government to ensure that fair employment issues are addressed every time that it begins negotiations with potential partners for the delivery of public services. It is appropriate that the rights of the work force that is charged with delivering those services throughout the life of the contract form part of those negotiations. That is why we ask this Parliament to agree that the United Kingdom Parliament should be asked to extend the Scottish ministers' powers so that the Scottish ministers can ensure that workers who are directly employed by Scottish local authorities get protection of their terms and conditions and their pensions if they are transferred to private sector providers.

That means that we must give directions and guidance to Scottish local government about matters that are reserved under the Scotland Act 1998. Those directions will say that local government should conduct its contracting exercises on the basis that the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981 will apply unless there are exceptional circumstances. They will also say that local government should conduct those exercises on the basis that transferred staff will be offered retention of the local government pension scheme or an acceptable alternative and that local government should abide by the provisions of the Cabinet Office statement "Staff Transfers in the Public Sector", as well as the annexe to it, "Staff Transfers from Central Government: A Fair Deal for Staff Pensions".

As I have said, employment rights and pensions usually raise competence issues for us under the Scotland Act 1998. However, a vehicle has been found to give the Scottish ministers the power to issue such directions in Scotland—the Local Government Bill that is currently before the UK Parliament—and I am extremely anxious to take advantage of that opportunity. If we do not do so, we cannot be sure that local authority work forces in Scotland will have the same protections on the issues as their colleagues south of the border, and that would be negligent on our part.

When the Parliament passed the Local Government in Scotland Bill last month, it approved a key part of our reform programme aimed at better public services. It showed its commitment to remove barriers that hinder the delivery of effective public services. It also approved an approach that puts quality, equality and continuous improvement at the fore.

Fair employment is crucial to our modernising government programme—as, of course, are local authorities. Local authorities and the workers that they employ provide vital services, which affect quality of life for the residents of Scotland. In turn, we have the opportunity to make the terms and conditions of those work forces a little more reliable. We should take that opportunity.

I move,

That the Parliament endorses the principle of including in the Local Government Bill powers for the Scottish Ministers to issue directions and guidance to Scottish local authorities in relation to staff transfer matters and agrees that the relevant provisions to confer executive functions on the Scottish Ministers in relation to these matters should be considered by the UK Parliament.

I know that it will be a big surprise for the minister when I say that the Scottish National Party will support the Sewel motion. It is a change to see UK ministers' powers on directing local government being transferred to the Scottish ministers.

I will say in passing only that we should have more of the same and that it would be very nice if all the reserved powers in schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998 could be repatriated to the Parliament.

It is extremely welcome that direction on TUPE will be given to local government. It is essential that workers' rights be upheld at all times.

As Keith Harding and Iain Smith do not wish to speak, does Mr Kerr want to say anything in response to the vigorous debate?

I welcome the support—

I beg your pardon. I have another name on the screen. I call Pauline McNeill.

I did not realise that the debate would be so short. I have prepared a wonderfully long speech, but I will shorten it, as everyone else has done with theirs.

I wanted to speak in the debate because I have felt strongly in the past about enhancing workers' rights and their terms and conditions. I have questioned the minister on that many times. This is a good day. I know that Andy Kerr is determined to eradicate the two-tier work force and we should acknowledge his work on that.

This is an important day for progress on fair rights in employment. It is also important to acknowledge that the Scottish Trades Union Congress and the trade unions have worked with Andy Kerr on the matter. Although they would not agree on everything, I realise that they have played an important part in making the changes that we are making through what could be called, because we are taking reserved powers for the Scottish ministers, a reverse Sewel motion. Those powers are welcome.

At some future date, I would like clarification of what those powers will mean. I feel strongly that we could be stronger on pensions. I hope that the powers will allow the Scottish ministers to ensure that there will be no detriment to pensions in a transfer. That applies not only to transfers to the private sector; in the future, there will be cases of the private sector handing back contracts to local government. I know that there are powers to allow local government workers to remain in a pension scheme.

I hope that further work will be done in other areas of public service, such as the national health service, to apply the principles of harmonisation, equal pay and equal rights to ensure that workers' pay, conditions and pensions are never sacrificed for profit but are protected. I welcome what the minister has said and I welcome the motion.

I thank members for their support. I particularly thank Pauline McNeill for her kind words on the work that the Executive has been doing. That work continues and we will seek to make further improvements as time goes on.

The motion offers us a chance to do something for the work force. I feel strongly about that and am pleased to be able to present such a Sewel motion to the Parliament.

We want to ensure that terms and conditions are protected. I assure Pauline McNeill that I will correspond with her on the detail of what is being agreed today, specifically on the guidance and the statutory underpinning of what has been said on TUPE, pensions and ensuring that work force terms and conditions are protected.

The motion is about powers that are important to the Parliament being exercised by Scottish ministers, not English ministers. I accept the points that have been made. Because of what Keith Harding and Iain Smith did not say, I presume that they too are on board and support the motion.

The occasion is an appropriate one for a Sewel motion. It enhances our relationship with the work force in the public sector. They are at the front line and deliver heroically for us.

I thank members for their general support on the matter.