Chamber and committees

I have one more question. Page 16 of the update mentions the invest-to-save fund. I would like a bit more detail about which sectors benefit from that. What is the evaluation period for that investment, and what are your indicators of success?

I would say that we have kept the best till last. Thank you for giving us your time. I put on record that this is the best committee that you will spend time with.

I direct members to my entry in the register of interests—I work for NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde as a nurse, and I am a councillor in Renfrewshire Council. Given the broad-brush nature of our discussions, members will understand why I have made that declaration.

With regard to data sharing, the “Tell us once” narrative is now a focus for Government, and I want to look at how we can deliver on that. I appreciate that the focus of my questioning will be very health orientated, but I feel that that is relevant, given the gravity of what we are looking to achieve.

Data sharing across different systems can be a difficult issue, as can data sharing across different disciplines. For example, a general practitioner might see someone who is in distress and who needs to have contact with mental health services. However, because people are imperfect by nature, it might be out of hours. How can they access that information? A critical conversation might have taken place in which there was a misstep with the risk management of that individual, which can be picked up on only the next day. That is a classic example.

We are talking about changes to health boards. Even sending data from one health board to another can be an issue. Unfortunately, there have been missteps in care as a result, and it often turns out that feedback has been given in which people said that they had misgivings.

I will not say that this is the case 99 per cent of the time, because I do not have the exact statistic, but we often find that communication has been the biggest failure point, and that preventative measures could have been put in place. We need to look at how we can make services interact.

I understand that that is down to health services. I am not asking you to directly answer on that specific example, but it demonstrates some of the problems that we have, because there are different contracts for different systems within different health boards, and that is the level that we are talking about. It would be interesting to get some thoughts on that.

Thank you very much, cabinet secretary. On that point about deliverability and building public confidence, it is also important to note the opportunities arising from the points that you have just raised.

I will move on to page 10 of the 45-page update document. Action 4/16 mentions the expansion of the clusters programme. Do you have a timeframe for when you are aiming to publish the network of clusters, so that we are aware of when that expansion is likely to take place?

I have a request. We can see how big a task the Government has in relation to delivering public service reform. Part of that delivery, and the necessary change of culture, involves bringing the public along with us. Ultimately, we need the public to believe that PSR will change public services for the better. My request is that we make the information that we put out there digestible for the public. Even among the indicators in the update document, there are some acronyms that are explained and others that are just used as shorthand. I appreciate that I can quickly google that to find out what they mean, but although I have the time to do that, people who are busy living their lives might not. Things are tough at the moment, and we want as much engagement as possible, so that people feel comfortable that they understand what the changes mean for their lives, and feel able to engage with consultation processes and so on in order to offer feedback. I ask that we make the information not only accessible, which is important, but digestible. We must try our best to present the information in a way that is not overwhelming for people who do not sit with this every day.

On opportunity within public service reform, indicator 4/20 on page 12 of the 45-page update document talks about the “entrepreneurial mindset”. Going through the pillars, clinical governance has a little bit of that flavour and it has been through a maturing process and is well embedded in the NHS, so I am not asking specifically about the NHS. However, when we bring these things in, how do we look to change our leaders in different sectors so that they really embrace that? How do we look to upskill individuals who maybe do not have that mindset?

Often, one of the greatest concerns of the public is that a vision is set out from the leadership, and from a governmental perspective, and that goes through its processes, but when it comes to real-time implementation, it is sometimes lost in translation. When we reach an evaluation period, it is at that point that we can see that there have been fail points, or maybe there has been some misunderstanding. How is the Government looking to address those points? We are looking to bring people into a more entrepreneurial mindset about these things, but that might not necessarily be a natural thing for people to lean into.

Correct.

Thank you for your contributions so far. My supplementary question is about building public confidence and the cultural shift that is needed. Stephen Boyle mentioned that, although previous changes might have resulted in benefits, the public might not necessarily have been brought along with those changes. What are your thoughts on the opportunities for the Government to get this right in the short, medium and longer terms?

I would like to think that that is a virtue that I will carry forward.

My question follows on quite nicely from that conversation. True and meaningful change and reform are about organisational change and the leadership of our public sector organisations. What are your thoughts on their readiness to embrace that level of change, and on their skills and ability to do so? I am happy to hear from whoever wants to tackle that.

Seeing as we have the luxury of a bit of time, I will come in. I have spoken previously about the issue of quantitative versus qualitative measures, which I have always found to be a bit of an enigma, including when I was studying. How do you see those two approaches coming together? I appreciate that that is a difficult question to answer, but, based on your expertise and your understanding of where we are politically and as a society, where do you see the real opportunities for the Government and the committee? Do you see a difference between the role of the two?

I draw members’ attention to my interests. I am a nurse, and I work for NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde in a casual capacity, just to maintain my registration. Also, I have a dual mandate: I am a councillor on Renfrewshire Council.