Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Wednesday, September 6, 2023

Official Report 1045KB pdf

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Save Our Pools

The final item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-10199, in the name of Liz Smith, on the save our pools campaign. The debate will be concluded without any questions being put. I ask members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament recognises what it sees as the importance of swimming as an essential basic skill, particularly among children, the obvious health and fitness benefits for the population at large, and its importance in reducing the life expectancy gaps between different communities; notes what it sees as the need to prevent accidents in Scotland's vast array of popular rivers and lochs and to enhance the wider social benefits that swimming pools provide as community hubs enjoyed by people of all ages; acknowledges what it considers the huge part that swimming pools play in attracting and developing talent at the highest levels of Scottish and British sport, most notably swimmers such as Duncan Scott, who was trained and brought up in the Mid Scotland and Fife region and who became the most successful British Olympian at a single Olympic Games, in Tokyo, and one of the most decorated Team GB medallists of all time; expresses, therefore, its profound concerns at the reported number of swimming pool closures that are planned across Scotland, and notes the calls on the Scottish Government to urgently act to reverse what it sees as this unwelcome trend, as called for by Scottish Swimming in its campaign, #SaveOurPools.

17:14  

It is my privilege to open the debate on behalf of many residents across Mid Scotland and Fife, particularly in Perth and Alloa, who have written to me about the plight of their local swimming pools and as convener of the cross-party group on sport, whose members have raised their own concerns. I also compliment Scottish Swimming on the work that it has undertaken. I look forward to hearing the contributions from other colleagues, some of whom have been campaigning hard in their local communities, and I sincerely hope that we can find some cross-party consensus.

Members know that sport has always been a large part of my life. During my time as a member of the Parliament, I have always sought to bring my outside passion for sport into my working life to ensure that the voices of sporting bodies are heard as loudly as possible by those who are in power.

I have been convener of the cross-party group on sport for more than 10 years, and swimming has always had a high profile among our members. I take the opportunity to thank Kim Atkinson and the Scottish Sports Association for all their work. Their contribution is important because of the incontrovertible evidence that tells us why a healthy and vibrant sporting sector benefits us all.

That is why all of us are worried about the closure or impending closure of sports facilities—in this case, local swimming pools. I am sure that colleagues from West Lothian who join the debate will have some strong words regarding the proposed closures of the Armadale, Broxburn and Livingston pools. The public backlash about those in the news speaks for itself.

Swimming is an essential basic skill to acquire, especially for children, so it is frightening that the National Water Safety Forum reports that 40 per cent of children leave primary school unable to swim and that their opportunity to learn that skill is strongly linked to their socioeconomic background.

It goes without saying that swimming pools are an important facility for maintaining good health and wellbeing. The Scottish Government has said clearly that it recognises the need to improve the nation’s health and address the wide life expectancy gap between many regions across Scotland.

Does Liz Smith agree that, with the cost of obesity in Scotland having risen to £5 billion and the cost from mental health having risen to £4.5 billion, any reduction in our access to physical activity is a false economy and that we should resist it as much as we can?

How could I possibly disagree with that? I also pay tribute to Brian Whittle for the work that he has undertaken over many years on that point.

I hope that the minister will recognise that the decisions to close fitness facilities such as pools are directly in conflict with the aim of the Scottish Government, which is trying to improve our physical and mental health and wellbeing. Such decisions are completely counter-productive when we have the lowest life expectancy in the United Kingdom and an epidemic of obesity.

Swimming pools transcend the fitness aspect. They are popular community hubs that attract young and old people alike and are particularly enjoyed on family outings. I am sure that most people have happy childhood memories of visiting pools with their siblings, friends, parents and grandparents. Closing local community facilities, as we saw in abundance in the aftermath of Covid, leads directly to increases in antisocial behaviour among some younger groups who find that they have fewer places to go.

I will add a point about water safety. In Scotland, where we are truly blessed with a vast array of popular lochs and rivers spanning the country, we also have by far the highest rates of drowning fatalities anywhere in the UK. Those have risen considerably since 2015, with especially grim statistics in 2021, when 57 lives were lost to drowning. That is an issue for young people especially because the influence of social media is having a considerable impact and is attracting greater numbers of people to enjoy the beauty spots across Scotland. That is an important point to bear in mind when we focus on the diminishing number of people with basic swimming skills.

On a much happier note, it is Scotland’s privilege to be home to many elite athletes who have achieved much in the world of swimming. In the motion, I mention Duncan Scott, who is well connected with Mid Scotland and Fife and is now one of the most highly decorated Olympians in British history. In the UK, swimming is well and truly on the rise. At the most recent Olympic games, in Tokyo, the British swimming team won eight medals, half of which were gold. That was the most successful result ever and the most medals won in swimming for more than 100 years. All of those elite athletes developed their talents because of the wide access that they had to pools, many of them in Scotland.

I appreciate that there is no quick fix to the issue, but I hope that the debate will generate the necessary awareness to reverse the undesired and, indeed, widely unpopular trend of closing community pools. I am sure that the minister will tell me that it is an issue for local authorities, but there is also the important issue of decades of underfunding of local authorities. Covid has certainly increased the costs of running such facilities: the Observatory for Sport in Scotland pinpoints the multimillion-pound maintenance backlogs that have spiralled costs out of control and the unsustainable funding model. The Scottish Government has a crucial role to play.

When the Scottish Government negotiates the much-needed fiscal framework with local government, which I hope will include multiyear funding and planning, I hope that the issue of swimming pools will be well up the agenda. The UK Government has already moved on the issue by providing £63 million of investment to pools in England, which aims to address the challenges of current costs and improve long-term sustainability through energy plans. However, no such decision has been forthcoming from the Scottish Government. Why not?

Joe FitzPatrick confirmed to my colleague Pam Gosal in finance questions this afternoon that

“all the consequentials that have come to the Scottish Government have been allocated.”—[Official Report, 6 September 2023; c 19.]

However, specifically in relation to Barnett consequentials for swimming pools, he did not confirm where they have been allocated. Will the minister confirm that today? If we want to save our community pools, that investment is desperately needed now.

We move to the open debate.

17:21  

First, I congratulate Liz Smith on bringing this important debate to the chamber. I will start with a rather petty, tongue-in cheek remark by saying that the motion in question is remarkably similar to the member’s business motion that I lodged back in April. However, well done to Liz Smith for securing the actual debate. Tongue-in-cheek comments aside, the fact that we lodged two similar motions demonstrates that everyone here has a desire to save our swimming pools.

I know the value that swimming pools can bring not just to local communities but to the wider area. My Coatbridge and Chryston constituency is home to the Time Capsule water park, which I am sure many members will have visited. I am not sure whether it is the same for the minister, but the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills, for example, has told me that her first trip to Coatbridge was to the Time Capsule when she was a child. The Time Capsule is so synonymous with swimming that John McGinn, who is not from Coatbridge, tagged himself on Instagram at the Time Capsule during that particularly wet night at Hampden when we beat Georgia. That says it all.

The threat facing our swimming pools is multilayered. The high energy dependency of our pools and leisure centres is one of the most obvious threats. Figures reported by Scottish Swimming estimate that energy prices for swimming pools and leisure centres increased from £500 million in 2019 to £1.2 billion in 2022. More recently, a shortage of chlorine has resulted in an increase of up to 30 per cent in the price of the chemical, which has further squeezed the already tight budgets of our community hubs and leisure centres.

The consequences of losing our pools are also multilayered. It is self-evident that pools provide the perfect environment for people of all ages to learn how to swim and about water safety. In this period of warm weather, there will be many more people enjoying our vast coastline and over 30,000 lochs—as Liz Smith pointed out. That is without mentioning the increasing popularity of wild swimming or dookin—whatever you might want to call it—which I have spoken about in Parliament in recent times. Learning how to swim safely is a key skill for everybody and, to be blunt, without pools we are risking people not learning that skill.

In addition to their role in water safety, pools are a place of exercise, which is critical for the maintenance of people’s physical and mental health. We often talk about mental health and the increase in those with mental health difficulties as we emerge from the Covid-19 pandemic. Exercise and fitness are a key way to improve and maintain one’s mental health. Without pools, we are cutting off another vital link. Often, pool swimming is a form of exercise that many people can do when they are unable to do other exercises.

As well as playing a role in relation to water safety and mental health, swimming pools can act as community hubs, as Liz Smith pointed out. They are important social assets for our villages, towns and urban centres. They breathe life into their communities and have enabled the development of talented athletes who have done Scotland proud on the world stage.

Earlier today, during question time, I asked the Minister for Local Government Empowerment and Planning how local authorities could be supported with rising energy costs, especially with regard to the implications for swimming pools. The minister confirmed that the Scottish Government is committed to ensuring that swimming pools remain sustainable in the future, while reasserting their importance for mental and physical health.

I will close by commenting on the parliamentary reception for Scottish Swimming that I sponsored in late March this year, at which we heard triple Olympian Hannah Miley MBE speak of her experiences of learning to swim and training in a local community pool. She said:

“I have very fond memories of my time learning to swim ... in a small 25m pool in Inverurie and the sense of belonging becoming a member of a club gave me. There was a whole community involved in the sport—from the friends I made in the pool, to the coaches who advised and supported me through good times and bad, to the parent volunteers who generously gave their time every weekend to support galas, competitions and training.”

Hannah succinctly articulated what we risk losing with every pool that closes. I hope that today’s debate will be part of the process of coming together to tackle the many multifaceted reasons for pools being at risk and trying to save them.

17:26  

I will jump right into the deep end and thank my colleague Liz Smith for bringing the subject of saving our pools to the chamber for debate. I am happy to speak about the necessity of access to swimming, which is so important for our children not only in a sporting capacity but for physical and mental development. Swimming strengthens the heart and lungs in infants, provides therapeutic health and increases cognitive and motor skills.

I would also like to commend Scottish Swimming on the save our pools campaign. As Scottish Swimming has highlighted, swimming pools often lie at the heart of communities and become places where home-grown heroes and champions are made in one of Britain’s and Scotland’s top-performing sports.

Look at the amazing country we live in. Scotland has one of the most beautiful landscapes of any country in the world. We have beautiful beaches with access to the sea, along with wild and wonderful lochs situated across the land. It is no wonder that wild swimming is rapidly becoming one of the most sought-after elements of individual healthcare routines, and Scotland is actively placed to promote it in our countryside. However, although participation in the sport is increasing rapidly, we face a rapid reduction in the number of people who will be able to experience it.

We are actually talking about a health and safety issue. Knowing how to swim is an excellent way to have a healthy life, and safety on the water is a life skill that we should all have. It is important that our young people know how to swim and that they know about the perils of the water and how to stay safe.

I make no excuses for raising the issue of swimming pool provision in my region of Mid Scotland and Fife, as the closure of swimming pools is having a detrimental effect right across the region. I recognise the concerns regarding local authority swimming pools, and I am disappointed that we have already seen the Alloa Leisure Bowl close its doors. It is deeply concerning that Perth leisure centre was heading towards closure.

Does the member know that the Perth leisure pool is to close? Can she confirm that?

I said that it “was heading towards closure”. It was only as a result of a reprieve of a year, which was arranged at the last minute, that residents were given a short relief. They are now bearing the brunt of a 10 to 15 per cent increase in prices, with no guarantee that that will save the leisure centre in the long run.

Time marches on and, unless adequate funding is found, we will shortly face another round of local authority budget processes, when the headlines of the imminent closure of Perth leisure centre will again be splashed across the front pages of the Perthshire press.

Equally, in Fife, the local media are highlighting a similar issue. Fife is looking down the barrel of a fifth school swimming pool closure. Inverkeithing high school will be the fifth school in the local area to lose its swimming pool since 2003 if the proposals go ahead. In the past 20 years, we have seen the pools at Queen Anne, St Columba’s, Dunfermline and Woodmill high schools close, with no replacements forthcoming. Now, Inverkeithing high is sitting under the funding sword of Damocles, awaiting the council’s decision.

The slow erosion of local amenities is having a detrimental effect on the children in the area. Dunfermline amateur swimming club is rightly concerned and it has simply asked how exactly Fife Council intends to fulfil its obligation to provide physical education in the form of swimming and community-use swimming lessons in the area. I cannot help but agree with the club. It will take a concerted effort at national and local levels if we are going to change the direction of travel, and I urge the Scottish Government to look at its policies and to include statutory swimming lessons in the same way as the rest of the United Kingdom does.

Swimming is a form of exercise that does not discriminate. It is perfect for everyone regardless of their ability, fitness level or age. Having a local facility is just as essential for elderly aqua aerobics as it is for butterfly time trials, lifesaving Brownie badges or simply swimming with pals. We must make sure that the joy of swimming stays open to all.

17:30  

I congratulate Liz Smith on her members’ business debate and I whole-heartedly agree with the majority of the motion, except perhaps the last line—I might return to that later.

As Liz Smith said, we can be proud of inspirational figures such as Duncan Scott, particularly for the fact that he trained at Strathallan school in Forgandenny, which is in my constituency of Perthshire South and Kinross-shire. Of course, I am absolutely going to claim that the most decorated British Olympian of all time at a single Olympic games is a Scot—a wee play on words there—and that he almost certainly owes his success to the Perthshire environment in which he was brought up and trained, including the Perthshire air and water and the fabulous people around him, none more so than his mum, Joy. Mind you, getting up to get into the pool at 5.30 in the morning, seven days a week, the strict eating regime, the constant pushing harder, further and faster, and sheer determination to be the best might have helped, but I still think that it was Perthshire that made him into the fabulous champion that he is. He is our Perthshire champion and we are keeping him.

Not only is Duncan Scott the most decorated Olympian, he is the most decorated Scottish athlete at the Commonwealth games level and he is Scottish Swimming’s ambassador. Scottish Swimming’s learn to swim campaign is sponsored by Scottish Water. He is a truly talented and remarkable young man. Despite being born in Glasgow and then living in Ayrshire and Alloa, he is—and I say this quite unashamedly—a Perthshire laddie.

Duncan Scott is also lucky to have had available to him the facilities that he needed to make him the superstar that he is. We want to have those facilities so that everybody, from babies to pensioners, can visit a pool, enjoy the water and get the physical and mental health benefits of doing so. Importantly, and particularly here in Scotland, they also need to have a life skill that is quite literally a life saver, as we have already heard.

We are all aware of the recent tragedies when people have lost their lives when wild swimming, but if someone has the core ability to swim, either from having had lessons at school, at the multitude of swimming clubs or through the learn to swim campaign that I mentioned when I was talking about Duncan Scott, I hope that that kind of tragedy can be averted.

I clearly remember my own swimming lessons in the freezing cold pool at Dunkeld Road in Perth, which smelled very strongly of chlorine. The teacher kept us standing at the side of the pool until everyone was ready, which just added to the fact that we were already freezing cold. That experience might not have been the greatest, but I definitely learned to swim. I was therefore delighted when my own children were taught at the then recently opened Perth leisure pool—a long time ago now, certainly—which was a much more pleasant environment. Anne and I could sit in the cafe in the viewing area above the pool and watch as our two cherubs were taught to swim like fish and put us both to shame. In fact, our eldest became such a great wee swimmer that she inspired her mum to go back and take a refresher course just to be better at it.

I am therefore completely supportive of the spirit behind the motion that Liz Smith has lodged. With that in mind, I commend the Scottish National Party administration in Perth and Kinross for making funding available this year to make sure that Perth leisure pool stays open, and its endeavours to ensure the long-term sustainability of that complex. It is in the process of building the new complex at the Blairgowrie rec in my colleague John Swinney’s constituency, and I am confident that it will find a way to do far more for the sustainability of the Perth facility than the previous administration, which was led by the Tories, did. That administration prevaricated for an entire term and refused to build the PH2O.

The Blairgowrie rec that the member refers to was a proposal that was put forward by a Conservative administration, was it not? It was put forward by the previous administration, I think he would agree.

Putting forward the proposal is one thing, but the previous administration—[Interruption.] The administration previous to the one that we are talking about proposed PH2O, but the proposal sat on the shelf and was never done. That is why the complex in Perth is currently in the situation that it is in. I hope that, in the spirit of this mutual accord, Liz Smith and Roz McCall will congratulate and support the SNP efforts in Perth and Kinross and make sure that the Perth leisure pool stays open.

17:35  

I thank Liz Smith for bringing this important issue to the chamber.

To be able to swim is to be able to exercise, socialise and learn vital water safety skills. That is especially true for our children, for whom swimming is a life-saving skill, and for older citizens, for whom swimming can be a lifeline to allow for independent exercise and socialising. All the vital contributions that swimming pools bring to our society are under threat. Without them, we run the risk of a whole generation being unable to swim and communities being without health and social activities.

Swimming is a great safety resource and preventive measure to teach our children water safety. My constituent Lewis Condy has been petitioning tirelessly for the inclusion of swimming in schools. Before I was a member, the Public Petitions Committee considered the petition. It heard evidence about the unequal access to swimming lessons and the link between a child’s social and economic background and their opportunity to learn to swim. That means that children are already at a disadvantage in relation to the benefits that swimming can bring because of poverty. Are we really going to make that worse by removing community swimming pools altogether?

A lack of funding has hit the sector hard. I repeat: a lack of funding. That is clear in West Lothian, where three pools have closed. Lewis told me that Broxburn swimming pool, which is one of those affected,

“wasn’t just a swimming pool, it was someone’s rehabilitation. It was their therapy to improve mental health. It was a social club to meet with friends. It was the livelihood of local swimming clubs. It was somebody’s job.”

Lots of disabled or elderly people rely on swimming as the only form of exercise that they can do safely. One constituent told me that closures have given him “sleepless nights”. Another constituent was unable to access council swimming lessons for her children due to extremely high demand. Private swimming lessons are expensive, so lower-income families once again lose out. On this issue, I wrote to the Minister for Social Care, Mental Wellbeing and Sport, and I was told that there was no time available to meet. I then wrote to the First Minister—I have received no response. Now, there is no mention of swimming pools in the new programme for government.

The UK Government allocated £63 million to leisure centres with swimming pools in England. When I asked the Scottish Government, the response confirmed that it has benefited from

“consequentials ... added to the overall Scottish block.”—[Written Answers, 19 June 2023; S6W-18739.]

Why was that money not directly invested in saving our pools or providing communities with a natural health service? Why is the Scottish Government not doing enough to save our pools?

17:39  

I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak this afternoon. I congratulate my colleague Liz Smith on securing this members’ business debate on a very essential and highly concerning issue.

As has been said a number of times, Ms Smith’s motion rightly mentions Duncan Scott, who was raised in Clackmannanshire in our Mid Scotland and Fife region and has become one of Scotland’s most successful swimming champions in recent memory. Yet, thanks to the closure of the Alloa leisure bowl, the town no longer has a swimming pool which, honestly, is a disgraceful situation. The nationalist Scottish Government and, in turn, the nationalist-run Clackmannanshire Council are jointly culpable for that travesty. Clackmannan Development Trust said at the time that it was

“Another devastating blow to the wee county with the loss of more jobs; and of course, the loss of all the health, fitness and social activities that the leisure bowl provided for the past 30+ yrs.”

Around 52,000 residents in the county are now unable to find a swimming pool or swimming facility there. One resident said that it was

“So disappointing! The loss of opportunity for children in Clackmannanshire to develop the life skill in swimming, and the loss of fitness, leisure and recreation facilities for residents who do not have the money or transport to travel out with the county. Sad times!”

These are sad times, indeed. The Scottish Government’s squeezing of council budgets, interlinked with Clackmannanshire Council’s total lack of vision and forward thinking, has meant that no contingency plan was in place at all for a pool in the county. When schools were built in the wee county, not one of them provided a swimming pool. Another resident summed up the situation by saying that schools not building swimming pools was a disgrace and

“a double whammy for Clackmannanshire children.”

Save our pools is a national campaign to highlight the importance of swimming pools and to secure long-term financial investment from the Government for the sustainability of our pools and sport.

We already know, but it is right to point out again, that swimming pools are the nation’s natural health and safety service. Around 14 million people of all ages and abilities swim each year in the United Kingdom, which helps to ensure that they are healthy individuals and, in turn, saves the national health service millions of pounds. We know the difficulties around health inequality in my region of Mid Scotland and Fife and in other regions; sport and swimming give huge health opportunities.

I have been a strong advocate of water safety, too, for many decades. It is only right to point out that swimming pools are natural places for people to learn how to swim, which can lead to an opportunity to save lives. Without pools, we are putting children and other individuals’ lives at risk.

For nearly two decades, I had the privilege of being a councillor in Perth and Kinross, and I was the chair of Perth and Kinross Leisure for a term, where we promoted swimming and safety in water. We have heard about the difficulties of Perth leisure pool, which must be retained and maintained but hangs by a thread because of the funding issues that are coming down the line. Serious questions will have to be asked about that.

I have had the privilege, too, of being the convener of community safety in Perth and Kinross Council for four years. We worked hand in hand with emergency services to do all that we could to publicise the message of safety in water and ensure that it was out there in the community, which did a huge amount to ensure that there were not as many tragedies. However, we find that more and more tragedies occur today—recently, my region saw the horrific loss of a popular and bright young teenager in the River Teith.

As we have heard, the UK Government has pledged more than £60 million to keep swimming pools afloat in England. Scottish Swimming has called on the SNP Government to allocate the money that the UK Government has provided to prevent swimming from becoming unaffordable and unreachable by many in our community.

In a press release, Scottish Swimming said:

“There is cross-party political backing for swimming pools in Scotland”.

That must be looked at and kept going, and we will do all that we can. That money needs to be translated into funding for what is happening in Scotland; the consequentials should be used to ensure that our pools survive.

I echo the points that have been made. I ask the minister to acknowledge them in her summing up and to protect and save our pools as she has a duty to do.

17:44  

I thank Liz Smith for lodging her motion and securing this important debate.

Much has already been said about the benefits of learning to swim and of swimming itself—the physical, mental and emotional benefits to individuals, and the social and community wellbeing benefits for wider society. I want to focus my remarks this evening on the campaign to save Bucksburn swimming pool in Aberdeen. That much-loved community pool closed its doors at the end of April this year after Aberdeen City Council cut Sport Aberdeen’s funding by £700,000.

I thank and pay tribute to the save Bucksburn swimming pool campaigners for their excellent work. They have worked tirelessly since the announcement of the closure in March, springing into action very quickly, bringing people together, getting information out to communities and getting organised. They took early steps to bring the pool into community ownership through a community asset transfer, got thousands of people to support a petition to save the pool and organised rallies and meetings. Alongside the save Aberdeen libraries campaign, they also organised for and pursued a judicial review over a failure to consult the public on the closures before any decisions were taken. They did all of that because of the vital role that Bucksburn swimming pool has played in so many people’s lives.

Bucksburn swimming pool, which was Aberdeen’s busiest, provided swimming lessons for children and adults, therapeutic sessions for people with short-term and chronic issues, including physical and other disabilities, and so much more. Bucksburn Amateur Swimming Club was based there. When the pool was open, it was the only one in the city with built-in disabled access. It truly has been an important facility for many across the city for so long.

The legal action that the anti-cuts campaigners initiated focused on the fact that the city council did not undertake any consultation prior to the decision to close the facilities. Moreover, due regard was not paid to the council’s public sector equality duties, and no comprehensive equality impact assessment was undertaken or published. Given what we know about the disproportionate impact of the loss of such facilities on marginalised communities, that alone was deeply concerning, and it certainly does not foster good faith in, or relationships with, communities.

However, I am pleased to say that, following negotiations in four petitions for judicial review at the Court of Session, the council is now listening to communities and will undertake and publish a full public consultation and equality impact assessment. As a result, Govan Law Centre and Robert Gordon University’s Grampian Community Law Centre have, on behalf of the community campaigners, paused their legal action. However, the issue should never have got that far. It is clear that there are lessons for all of us to learn about how we make decisions, how we include people in those decisions and how we work together. Indeed, Alexander Stewart has already talked about that.

I will close with the words of Kirsty Fraser from the save Bucksburn swimming pool campaign, who issued a rallying cry to encourage people in Aberdeen and further afield to engage in the consultation process. She said:

“I hope this is a positive step in the right direction towards reopening these vital facilities. It will be very difficult for Aberdeen City Council and Sport Aberdeen to justify sticking to the decision to close them when considering the public consultation responses and the equality impact assessments, as the impacts to our communities are vast and profound. It is vital for members of the public to engage in these processes and let the council know what the closures mean to them. This is our chance to make a difference.”

We all have the opportunity to make a difference. I hope that the minister will grasp it with both hands when she sums up.

Due to the number of members who wish to speak in the debate, I am minded to accept, under rule 8.14.3, a motion without notice to extend the debate by up to 30 minutes. I invite Liz Smith to move such a motion.

I thank colleagues who have turned up to this debate. It is very much appreciated.

Motion moved,

That, under Rule 8.14.3, the debate be extended by up to 30 minutes.—[Liz Smith]

Motion agreed to.

17:49  

I, too, congratulate my colleague Liz Smith on securing this important members’ business debate.

I will start my short contribution by sharing with members that I regularly visit Blantyre leisure centre with my daughter Charlotte. As members might be aware, Charlotte has just turned one, and she has gone swimming since she was four months old. She loves the water, and she has taken to paddling her legs in her swimming ring as a duck takes to water. I want Charlotte to be a confident swimmer. That is why swimming pools are so important. Swimming is a vital life skill and, without our swimming pools, children and young people’s lives are put at risk.

Further, without swimming pools, talent would also be stifled, as Liz Smith has pointed out. Here in Scotland, we have developed talented people who have gone on to become some of the most successful and well-known Olympians and decorated GB medallists.

We need to save our pools in order to develop and nurture sporting talent but also—and this is most important—to save lives. Recently, I went back to the Sir Matt Busby centre in Bellshill, where I first learned to swim. I was one of the fortunate school pupils in North Lanarkshire to benefit from free swimming lessons during my last year in primary school, something that has long been cut due to reductions in council budgets. Budget cuts have devastating consequences for our communities and, if the Government cannot find a fair settlement for councils, I fear that a number of public swimming pools will close for good.

I want to finish by talking about a fantastic bunch of parents and talented young people at the Bellshill Sharks Amateur Swimming Club, which was founded in 1968. When I had the pleasure of attending one of their swimming sessions, I spoke to some of the young people, who showed me the medals that they had won during swimming meets and, of course, told me the history of the club that they are so proud of. Parents told me how much personal time they give up in order to fit in training and attend the various competitions that their children participate in. The club is a community and it gives young people more than just a vital life skill; it gives them a sporting hobby and friendship as well as routine and discipline.

Not that long ago, the Bellshill Sharks were worried about their home in the Sir Matt Busby centre, which they feared might not reopen after the pandemic. It took pressure from myself and other councillors at that point before the council would confirm that the centre would reopen. However, that threat is still there, because North Lanarkshire Council has to find £60 million-worth of cuts over the next three years, on top of the £228 million-worth of cuts that have been made over the past decades. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing left for councils to cut, which is why we are seeing councils up and down the country making painful decisions that will have detrimental impacts on our communities.

The member is right that councils across the UK are facing cuts. However, does she accept that the rise in energy bills, particularly for pools, is a specific concern, along with the cost of chlorine, which I mentioned earlier?

I absolutely acknowledge the points that Fulton MacGregor has made this afternoon. However, the issues with the Bellshill Sharks and the Sir Matt Busby centre arose during the pandemic, when the council was suggesting that the centre might not be able to be reopened, because of the combined effect of the pandemic and budget cuts.

The Bellshill Sharks are just one example of clubs across Scotland that will be worried about their futures should councils be unable to keep their facilities open. That is why I am backing my colleague Liz Smith’s motion tonight and our save our pools campaign.

17:53  

I, too, thank Liz Smith for securing the time for this evening’s debate.

Earlier this year, I was involved in the fight to save Bucksburn swimming pool after Sport Aberdeen’s devastating decision to close it. That decision, which was a result of funding cuts by Aberdeen City Council, was taken without consultation and without equality impact assessments. At the time, Bucksburn was the only swimming pool in the city with a shallow-stair entry for people with disabilities. Only now, months after the axe came down, are we likely to see a full formal consultation on the closure, because of legal challenges prepared by the Govan Law Centre and the Grampian Community Law Centre. The surrounding community rallied around that beloved facility, and I pay tribute to those involved in the campaign to save the pool, such as Kirsty Fraser and Genevieve Wheeler-Melvin, and their incredible efforts to keep the pool open, as well as to Dr Mark Brown, president of Bucksburn Amateur Swimming Club.

Too many people in decision-making positions forget or are oblivious to the benefits of public swimming pools. The reality is that councils look at facilities such as Bucksburn through the lens of balance sheets and financial liabilities. However, a mental health nurse I met at a save Bucksburn swimming pool demo told me that she swears by swimming as a help to her patients; another woman told me that she has a rare kidney disease and that the water makes swimming a weight-bearing exercise for her; and there was a man with two replacement knees who found walking difficult and therefore needed the pool to exercise and build up his strength. The pool also provided the opportunity for children to learn essential life skills to keep them safe in water. Indeed, hundreds of children were learning to swim at Bucksburn pool before it closed.

There is also a wider story to tell about the state and provision of council-funded leisure facilities elsewhere in my region—and I would note that no Labour or Scottish National Party members from the region are here this evening. In Dundee, a storied saga of ineptitude and dither has led to the city’s flagship Olympia swimming pool closing for two years, only nine years after opening. Meanwhile, Dundee City Council is spending more than £100 million replacing two schools—Braeview academy and Craigie high school—that have swimming pool facilities, but there are no plans for a swimming pool at the new East End community campus.

In March 2023, the UK Government announced a £63 million fund for struggling swimming pools. The Scottish Government received Barnett consequentials as a result of that, yet we are still in the dark about how that money has been allocated. I hope that Maggie Chapman, who has spoken so passionately about Bucksburn swimming pool, can influence her SNP colleagues to spend the money that they have received from the UK Government to save it.

The social, emotional and health-related value of our swimming pools cannot be ignored, and I urge the Scottish Government to step up to save them.

17:56  

I thank my colleague Liz Smith for bringing forward this debate. Given the limited time, I will refrain from repeating points that have already been made, other than to say that swimming is a vital and life-saving skill.

I have heard from adults and young people in my constituency who are devastated that more and more north-east swimming pools face closure due to councils being underfunded by this SNP Government. The issue raised its head when Aberdeen City Council’s Bucksburn swimming pool was closed in April and we have heard from many who are fighting to have it reopened. As my colleague Tess White has suggested, it is disappointing that there is no representation from the north-east on the Labour or SNP benches this evening. More than 900 children were enrolled in swimming lessons at that pool, and it is also the only pool in Aberdeen to have built-in disabled access.

I should also point out that, in my Aberdeenshire West constituency, many swimming pools have seen a significant reduction in hours. The pool at Alford community campus has had sessions slashed, with the timetable changing on an almost weekly basis. Last month, I launched a petition to save north-east swimming pools, calling on the Scottish Government to fully fund Live Life Aberdeenshire, to ring fence funding from Westminster for swimming pools and leisure centres and to reverse the current cuts. So far, my petition has been signed by almost 400 supporters.

We have yet to receive a commitment from this SNP Government that Scottish pools will get their share of the additional money that we will receive through the Barnett formula after the UK chancellor announced £63 million of support for swimming pools. In a response to one of my constituents, the Scottish Government stated that it

“has increased the resources available to local government in 2023-24 by more than £793 million, a real terms increase of £376 million or 3%, compared to the 2022-23 Budget figures.”

I raised that figure with Aberdeenshire Council. Neither it, nor the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, recognises the figure, nor can they work out how the Scottish Government came to it. I would appreciate an answer from the minister, in writing, about that funding, either to clarify the calculations or to provide an apology for misleading my constituents.

As we have heard today, it remains clear that cuts to local councils have real consequences, and it is time that the SNP gave councils their fair share.

I call the minister to respond to the debate.

17:59  

I thank Liz Smith for bringing the debate to the chamber, and I thank the members on all sides of the chamber who have made speeches. I know that we all feel passionately about the subject, and quite rightly so. I want everyone, regardless of their background, to be able to benefit from sport and physical activity.

We believe that every child should be given the opportunity to learn to swim—it is absolutely a life skill. That is why we have been working with Scottish Swimming, Education Scotland, sportscotland and Scottish Water to develop interventions and approaches to provide opportunities for children to become confident, safer and competent swimmers.

There is a simple solution. If we had statutory swimming lessons in primary schools, the problem would be solved.

The member will be aware that, in the curriculum for excellence, we do not make any lessons statutory. However, I will go on to explain to him what we are doing to pilot delivery models that will, we hope, find a way to ensure that those from the most deprived areas in Scotland can benefit from swimming lessons.

The delivery model pilots been have taking place across 2022-23, with four different models of delivery, each piloted by one local authority. Those pilots have been focused on some of the most deprived areas in Scotland. They have now been completed, and an evaluation is currently being undertaken, which will be published in September. We plan to work with Scottish Swimming and sportscotland to take the learning from those pilots and consider the best approach for continued roll-out of a national framework for school swimming over the coming years.

We are also continuing to work closely with all relevant organisations on water safety to explore opportunities to collaborate and help to reduce the number of incidents. We want to raise awareness, in particular among those who are most at risk, so we are working with anglers and paddle boarders. It is positive that the latest figures from the water incident database indicate that, in 2022, accidental drowning fatalities in Scotland decreased in comparison with 2021, which was a particularly devastating year.

The motion for debate also recognises the importance of swimming pools

“in attracting and developing talent”.

Outstanding performances from Scottish athletes on the world stage have demonstrated that Scotland’s approach to performance sport is delivering against agreed outcomes. I was privileged to watch our athletes complete in the Commonwealth games in Birmingham last year, where they won an incredible 13 medals. Most recently, at the Trinbago Commonwealth youth games, Scotland won 11 medals in swimming—seven for Matthew Ward, three for Holly McGill and three for Evan Davidson. Those fantastic achievements bode well for the future.

I know that the minister is passionate about that success. I put it to her that the Olympians are very strong on the issue of local swimming pools. Can the minister clarify the point about the Barnett consequentials? As my colleagues have said, we do not yet have clarity about where that money was allocated. One of the minister’s colleagues, at finance question time today, said that the consequentials have been allocated. Can the minister clarify where that money has been allocated?

I think that every member in the chamber is well aware that, although we got £5.816 million in consequentials as a result of the investment by the UK Government, that money comes within the block grant and it is then for Scottish ministers to decide how to allocate the resources that are available to them. Members can see that we make different decisions in Scotland. That is why, in Scotland, we have seen an increase in funding to our local authorities, whereas in England we are seeing multiple local authorities going bankrupt.

I am grateful to the minister, but I want to get the actual facts on the matter. As I understand it, the money that she is talking about was specifically for swimming pools. Did it actually go to the swimming pool allocation?

That money went into the overall Scottish block and decisions were made by Scottish ministers on how to allocate the resources, as they are every year.

Will the minister give way?

Certainly, but I will need to make progress.

I thank the minister for giving way, and I will not take up too much of her time.

Can I just clarify that no money went to swimming pools from the block grant? Is that what the minister is confirming to us this afternoon?

As the member is aware, the funding of these swimming pools is the responsibility of our local authorities, and the local authority block grant was increased this year by 3 per cent. Some councils, such as West Lothian Council, actually got a 4.5 per cent increase in funding revenue. I note that Foysol Choudhury did not mention once that West Lothian is a Labour council in coalition with the Conservatives, and I can understand his shame on that front.

That is where I would say the money has gone; the money has been allocated, as it always is. A spending decision might be made in England, but that does not mean that we spend the money in the same way. We adequately fund our local authorities; members can see the fundamental difference in that respect, given the number of local authorities going bankrupt in England and the fact that none has gone bankrupt in Scotland.

The motion also recognises the importance of swimming pools

“in attracting and developing talent”.

I must admit that the fantastic achievements of the young people of Scotland bode very well for the future, but we will all agree that the appropriate facilities must be in place to provide opportunities.

Can I just clarify whether it is only West Lothian Council that is closing pools or whether that is happening everywhere else in Scotland? I totally agree with the minister that the number of swimmers and all the swimming going on in Scotland are positive things, but, by closing all the swimming pools in every council, are we not preventing Scotland from having future champions?

Let me be absolutely clear: the total revenue support provided to West Lothian Council was £405 million, which was an increase of £17.2 million. The amount was significantly larger than the Barnett consequentials that were mentioned. That increase of 4.4 per cent was the second highest in Scotland, and the council is closing three swimming pools. In England, there have been 400 swimming pool closures since the Tories came to power—[Interruption.] If members allow me to proceed, we might be able to get into a mature discussion about some of the challenges facing the sector.

As we will all acknowledge, swimming pools and leisure centres are often at the heart of a community. They give an opportunity to bring together families; provide a place for those recovering from injury to exercise safely; offer regular clubs and activities where friendships as well as confidence and skills can be developed; and present the opportunity for athletes to progress and achieve success. These community hubs make a positive contribution to building healthier, happier and stronger communities.

However, we all know that local authorities are operating under very challenging financial circumstances and that, in some cases, pools have closed or are under threat. Rising energy costs have had a significant impact. We know that that increased expenditure puts pressure on budgets and can mean that other improvements, including energy efficiency, must be delayed or abandoned. Given that we all agree that increasing energy costs and their impact lie at the root of the challenge faced by swimming pools, I wonder whether we can also all agree that it is disappointing that the UK Government decided to exclude community leisure from the energy bills discount scheme. That would have fixed the problem at source.

We need a sustainable estate that is focused on the needs of people, energy efficient and accessible. That is why sportscotland is supporting Scottish Swimming in undertaking the Scottish swimming facilities project, which is a detailed piece of work that will allow us to understand accurately the current pool provision and life cycle and to predict the landscape in the short, medium and long terms.

The Scottish swimming facilities project has three phases: first, the provision of a high-level update on the change since the report “A Ticking Timebomb” was produced in 2001; secondly, the provision of good practice guidance on creating a more economically and environmentally sustainable swimming pool estate; and, thirdly, work with pilot local authority areas to implement the guidance to demonstrate the future sustainability of the swimming estate.

Particularly when public finances are under so much pressure, any investment needs to ensure that sustainable facilities are in the right places to serve their local communities’ needs. To truly safeguard our estate for the long term, we need to have a mature conversation. The Scottish swimming facilities project will help to provide some of the evidence for future decision making.

For our part, the Scottish Government has increased the resources that are available to local government by more than £793 million in 2023-24, which is a real-terms increase of £376 million, or 3 per cent.

Local authorities are independent corporate bodies.

Will the minister take an intervention?

No, as I am in the closing moments of my speech.

It is for local authorities to manage their own budgets and allocate their resources—including to leisure facilities—on the basis of local needs and priorities.

We will absolutely continue to work in partnership with local government to ensure that the people of Scotland continue to receive the high-quality public services that they expect and deserve. As the minister who is responsible for sport, I am committed to working with the sector to consider how we best provide support to ensure sustainable and accessible facilities.

Meeting closed at 18:12.