Lancastria
The final item of business is a members' business debate on motion S3M-786, in the name of Christine Grahame, on the Lancastria. The debate will be concluded without any questions being put.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament notes the armistice commemorations and takes time to reflect on the remarkable sacrifice made by veterans of many countries during numerous conflicts since the First World War; notes, in particular, the loss of the troopship, Lancastria, which was sunk on 17 June 1940 with the loss of 4,000 lives, an estimated 400 of them Scots, including individuals from the South of Scotland; notes the decades of official silence surrounding this loss, the worst for British forces in the whole of the Second World War, and supports the calls from the remaining survivors and relatives of victims for official recognition of this tragedy.
I put on record my thanks to all those members who signed the motion and to colleagues who have stayed behind, especially those who are contributing to the debate. The motion continues a campaign that has been pursued for decades by family members and survivors and which has accelerated since the inception of the Parliament.
I made a contribution as long ago as May 2005, when I recounted the story of one man's survival in hellish, oily seas that were being strafed by German fire intent on igniting the oil, all within sight of Saint-Nazaire on the French coast. Here is a short extract from a survivor's account of that moment:
"During this time the enemy continued to strafe the men on the ship and in the water. They also began dropping incendiaries in an attempt to light the leaking oil. At some point a seemingly crazed man tried to remove my life jacket, but I manage to fight him off. Even with the jacket on I stayed as still as possible in the water hoping this would improve my buoyancy. I believe I was in the water for around two hours. At one point a large dog swam by. I briefly held onto it because it was swimming away from the ship and I thought it would take me with it. I believe it had belonged to some refugee Belgian children who had been on the boat. They did not survive."
At least 4,000 souls perished that day—civilians and refugees; men, women and children. Included in that number were hundreds of Scots. I sent members a roll-call of the Scottish dead, so far as we know them—men from Ayrshire, Dumfriesshire and many other parts of Scotland; men from their teens to the age of 60. They came from many ranks and from all regiments—the Royal Engineers, the King's Own Scottish Borderers, the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, the Royal Artillery, and the field bakery. Mercifully, they never knew that 17 June 1940, the day when they embarked on the Lancastria, would be their last day and that their names would live on in the roll-call of the dead.
Their deaths were silenced by a D-notice so as not to undermine the propaganda of Dunkirk. That was understandable at the time. After the passage of nearly 70 years, why should it matter to the remaining survivors in Scotland—some seven in all—and their families? It simply does. I can do no better than to quote the words of Fiona Symon, who is in the chamber today. She is the daughter of Andrew Richardson, who was aged 27 and in the Royal Army Service Corps when he lost his life. She told the Public Petitions Committee:
"My mother died in 1992, still very bitter and sad that the country seemed to regard my father's life and the lives of the thousands who died with him as being of less value than the lives of others who died in world war two and who are remembered with honour.
In many cases, the survivors suffered more than any of us. They had to live out their lives with horrendous memories and nightmares. Today, they would have been offered counselling; instead, they were forbidden to talk about the sinking. As a result, they are forgotten and ignored … No shame was involved in the disaster: it did not have to be covered up, but desperate times called for desperate measures. The shame is in the silence and cover-up of the past 67 years … Unless someone has walked in the footsteps of the victims, survivors and their families, they cannot even begin to understand the depth of the human tragedy involved, the effects of which continue to this day."—[Official Report, Public Petitions Committee, 6 November 2007; c 230-31.]
Fiona Symon said those words in presenting a petition that seeks the commissioning of a commemorative medal to put the record straight. Westminster, to this day, has refused to designate the remains of the Lancastria a war grave, which would offer sanctity and protection to the site. The Ministry of Defence has refused to issue an official medal, so the survivors and their families seek redress and justice from their own Scottish Parliament.
There is an important distinction to be made between the words "official" and "commemorative". The MOD's website states:
"The term ‘official' could be used to describe any medals for which Her Majesty, or her predecessors, has given approval. Only these medals are permissible for wear on a service uniform. Commemorative medals are those which have been produced by organisations or private medal companies"—
or indeed the Scottish Parliament—
"to commemorate particular branches of service or areas of operations."
As some of us know, issuing commemorative medals is well within the compass of the Scottish Parliament. I know that because I have one, and I did nothing to get it.
The Lancastria Association of Scotland has made progress in establishing a memorial in the grounds of the Golden Jubilee national hospital, because the ship, which was originally a cruise ship, was Clyde built. There is a memorial service each year in Edinburgh to commemorate the unsung dead, and there is also such a service in Saint-Nazaire. Yet there is still no official recognition of the individuals who were involved in what was the worst maritime disaster in Britain's history. The history books have largely bypassed it.
Outside the chamber today is an exhibition on the Lancastria. I ask members in the chamber and outside to pause even for a short while to inform themselves of the rightfulness of the campaign and to sign the book of remembrance if they have not already done so. There is a photograph to be auctioned to raise funding for the memorial site.
We have a new Scotland, a new Government and a Parliament that has outgrown its infant clothes. There is no legal impediment to commissioning a medal for the few hundred people who desperately seek public recognition of their loss. I am sure that the people and the mayor of Saint-Nazaire, together with the Parliament, could provide the means and the method to commission those well-deserved medals. I therefore ask the minister to meet me and survivors' families in the Lancastria Association of Scotland to take the proposal forward in the spirit of the words that are woven into thistles at the head of the Parliament's mace, which represent the aspirations of the Scottish people: wisdom, justice, compassion, integrity. Those words should inform all our actions, especially those that we take on such a solemn and long-deserving cause.
I congratulate Christine Grahame on securing the debate. When I met her on 1 July 1999, I recognised immediately that she was someone who had firm commitments and a determination to proceed with things. She has certainly been determined and persistent with the agenda on the Lancastria disaster.
As the member for Clydebank, I have a particular interest in the subject. As Christine Grahame pointed out, the Lancastria was built in Clydebank, in Beardmore's yard in Dalmuir. The proposal is to have a memorial within the Golden Jubilee hospital, which is on the site of the former shipyard. I think that that is appropriate. Already in Clydebank we have a memorial to the Polish ship that played a prominent role in the Clydebank blitz, its sailors being involved in trying to put out the fires that affected Clydebank in March 1941.
There are similarities between the way in which the Clydebank blitz was not given publicity at the time and what happened in connection with the Lancastria, as Christine Grahame said. Of course, the Clydebank blitz could not be hushed up in quite the same way as the Lancastria disaster. However, for a long time there were strong feelings in Clydebank that, because of the feared impact on public morale, the scale of the carnage and the deaths in Clydebank during the blitz was given much less publicity than incidents of bombing elsewhere. It is obvious from the number of people who lost their lives in the Lancastria disaster and the number of families that were affected by it that it had a huge impact on many individuals and was a genuine tragedy that should have been recognised. Perhaps, in the 67 years since the end of the war, it should have been given greater recognition, as Christine Grahame suggested.
When I was a minister, before the election, Murdo Fraser raised the subject of the battle of Passchendaele and the memorial that was to be erected there. The Scottish Executive responded positively to his suggestion, and there was a formal process of recognising the impact of the battle of Passchendaele on Scottish regiments, which were heavily represented. There is a case for looking at the Lancastria disaster in a similarly sympathetic way.
Christine Grahame has been a persistent campaigner on the issue. She is aware that I have also been a persistent campaigner, over the years, on asbestos. It is proposed that a memorial be sited on the Clydebank waterfront to recognise all those who have lost their lives through asbestos-related disease. It would be entirely appropriate if, along the same stretch of waterfront, we had a memorial to the Lancastria disaster and a memorial to the asbestos disaster that has affected so many people in the civil sector.
I congratulate Christine Grahame on securing a debate on this very important subject. I enjoyed hearing Des McNulty's reference to my members' business debate earlier in the year on the Passchendaele memorial. I had the pleasure of going to Flanders in August to see the unveiling of the Scottish memorial at Passchendaele. The trip was tremendous and I am sorry that Des McNulty—having been deprived of ministerial office by the cruel electorate—was not able to join us. I assure him that Linda Fabiani very much enjoyed attending on behalf of the Scottish Government.
We are debating the sinking of the Lancastria, an event in world war 2 that affected and still affects hundreds of families and many communities throughout Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom. I pay tribute to the Lancastria Association of Scotland for all its work and dedication in endeavouring to ensure that all those who were on board the Lancastria at the time are remembered and honoured appropriately.
Christine Grahame set out the facts and the history. The Lancastria was sunk on 17 June 1940, while taking part in operation Ariel, with an estimated loss of 4,000 lives. The number of lives lost makes the sinking of the Lancastria the single bloodiest engagement for UK forces throughout the second world war. One of the many tragedies of that day is that we do not know how many people died, because there is no itinerary to show how many people were on board the vessel when it was sunk. The Lancastria was evacuating soldiers and civilians from France in the face of the German occupation. People were rushing on to the boat at the last minute, so no proper record was kept and we have no idea exactly how many died.
Christine Grahame referred to the eyewitness accounts of survivors. What those who survived had to face on that day is indescribable. They watched friends and thousands of fellow soldiers perish, some from the initial bomb blasts, drowning in the sea, choking on the 1,400 tonnes of fuel oil that had leaked from the ship, dying in flames or being shot by the German aircraft that were circling overhead seeking to kill the men in the sea.
Hundreds of Scottish soldiers lost their lives. In mid-Scotland and Fife, there were sons of Perthshire such as Auchterarder's Corporal James Whittet of the Royal Air Force, and Coupar Angus's Private Thomas Young. Trooper William Kidd of the 1st Fife and Forfar Yeomanry and Walter Small of the RAF from Angus were also among those who died. Every community throughout Scotland lost young men during the second world war, and the loss of hundreds of Scots through the sinking of the Lancastria scarred many communities.
As Christine Grahame said, the massive loss of life led to the British Government banning any public announcements about the disaster by means of the D-notice system, which was put in place to silence the media, if need be, during the war effort. It is hard to look back and disagree with Winston Churchill's decision to sign the D-notice. The Government of the time was trying to keep the nation's morale high when we were in our most perilous state in fighting the Germans. To hear of such a tremendous loss of life would have been a terrible blow to national morale at a time when we were trying to talk up the success of Dunkirk.
Of course, that decision should have been overturned. The fact that it was not seems not to have been malicious; not lifting the D-notice was simply an oversight by the Government at the end of the second world war. However, the consequence is that there has been no proper recognition of the tragedy. I agree with Christine Grahame that now is the time to recognise it.
I do not understand why the British Government will not designate the site as a war grave under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986. I welcome, and join, Christine Grahame's call for the Scottish Government to recognise the tragedy. I am not entirely convinced that we should strike medals—the Scottish Parliament's record on striking medals is not particularly happy. However, official recognition from the Parliament and the Government would be welcome.
I, too, congratulate my colleague Christine Grahame on her persistence in raising awareness of the terrible events of 17 June 1940. The scale of losses in that engagement guaranteed that it would touch families and communities throughout Scotland, the United Kingdom and further afield.
In the parliamentary debate in May 2005, Christine Grahame referred to her links with the tragedy through her father's friend, Jock Hunter, and her assistant's grandfather, Walter Hirst. I pay tribute to other survivors, among whom was a Mr Duncan Reid from Kilmarnock, who was the father of my friend and colleague Councillor Douglas Reid of East Ayrshire Council. Mr Reid senior, who died very recently, sailed as a 20-year-old Scots fusilier on the Lancastria. The number of contributors to the debate who can relate personally to the event emphasises the scale of the losses that occurred among the Scottish forces.
As has been recorded elsewhere, the events of that day were kept from the public during the war and continue to be subject to considerable secrecy and confusion. Duncan Reid did not talk about his experiences at all. Many of his family found out about his part in the events only after his recent death. Mr Reid kept his side of the bargain even to his death. His family, who are now looking into the events, already question whether the full facts are available and, if they are, whether they match those that have already been placed in the public domain. Uncertainty about the number of victims seems to be matched by similar uncertainty about which regiments were present on the vessel when it went down and how many of their men perished.
I commend to the Parliament the work of the Lancastria Association of Scotland. It is vital that we increase public awareness of the sacrifices—not just those of the second world war but the continuing sacrifices beyond that—that have been made by our armed forces.
It has often been said that truth is the first casualty of war. In the case of the Lancastria, not just truth but transparency suffered as a consequence. It is entirely understandable that, in the heat of battle, attempts were made to manage public awareness of the events—as Murdo Fraser rightly said—but the British Government's continuing failure to recognise the sacrifice that was made on 17 June 1940 is less understandable. The legitimate interest of the families and colleagues of those who served and died or survived should be acknowledged.
I urge colleagues to support this important motion.
I add my congratulations to Christine Grahame on securing the debate. I recognise the work that she has done and I commend her on how powerfully she spoke as an advocate on behalf of those who want recognition for the people who died.
In a previous life, I was a deputy minister. The thing that I was probably most proud of in that post was that I was veterans minister. It was a huge privilege to be given the critical responsibility, which lies with this Parliament, for the care of veterans. As minister, I had an important role in participating in and supporting remembrance celebrations, especially around the 60th anniversary of the end of the second world war.
At the time, people asked why it was important to look back. In looking back with respect and gratitude to those who lost their lives fighting to defend our country, we are also able to look forward. We have an opportunity to shape the future through understanding the past and the sacrifices that were made. It is critical that we remember those people, but it is also important to give out a strong message to our young people about their history so that they understand what happened and what ordinary people were prepared to do. It is important to mark and to acknowledge those sacrifices and to remind each new generation of them. Knowing the price that was paid by those who went to war—they were very often young people—and by those who continued to suffer as a consequence teaches important lessons about the horror of war.
Part of the real tragedy of this story is that families not only had to live with the impact of that huge loss of life, but had to suffer without the comfort of some recognition of the price that was paid. We owe a debt of gratitude to those people who lived in silence.
As someone of island community stock, I remember the respect that people had for the power of the sea and for any tragedy at sea. The thought of what people saw that night—as Murdo Fraser said—is very powerful. I also remember the small graveyard on the island of Tiree where the graves marking out those who lost their lives in the war—perhaps unknown people—came to be respected and revered. That, too, said that we remember and are grateful.
I, too, pay my respects to the members of the Lancastria Association of Scotland, who, like many such campaigners, have sustained their campaign over a long period, with compassion and persistence from which many of us could learn. Another example is the campaign to grant posthumous pardons to those who were executed in the first world war. Although it took a very long time, eventually the campaign was successful.
It would be fitting if, as Christine Grahame's motion states, the debate contributed to our supporting
"the calls from the remaining survivors"—
how poignant that phrase is—
"and relatives of victims for official recognition of this tragedy."
We owe them nothing less. Their sacrifice was massive, and they have suffered in silence for a long time. As Christine Grahame says, the Parliament should acknowledge that sacrifice and support calls for it to be recognised.
When I came to the chamber, I did not intend to speak, but I have been so moved by the speeches that have been made in the debate that I may be able to contribute something to it.
I am one of the historical advisers to the new museum of transport on the Clyde, which is being built on the river just opposite the Govan shipyard. The museum has one of the most wonderful shipbuilding model collections in the world, for boats that were built on the Clyde. When going through the museum's contents, I was struck by the fact that, although in Edinburgh castle we have one of the finest national war memorials in Europe—a unique memorial to an entire people caught up in the first world war—we do not have a fitting memorial to those who died, often civilians and merchant seamen, in the great battle of the Atlantic during the second world war. The sinking of the Lancastria was the first awful episode in that battle. If ships were torpedoed, those on board did not have a chance of surviving. Many families in Scotland were affected by that experience.
It struck me that some means of commemorating the ships that went out and sank, and the people who died, might be found in the new museum, which will be placed at a point where one can look up and down the river and see the great hive of activity that was once there. Kids and school parties will go there and, if the museum included a memorial, they would have a chance to commune with the past. The sinking of the Lancastria is the first chapter in the story, but there are other tragic chapters. The Arandora Star, which was carrying interned Italians into exile, was torpedoed, taking with it about a third of the Scots Italian community. Both friend and suspected foe perished in those seas, but there is no memorial to them. If we are contemplating setting up such a fine museum, it should include a section on these events, or some means of commemorating them that draws the visitor to it.
It is an honour for me to respond on behalf of the Scottish Government to this important debate. I thank all members who have taken part in it.
Like other members, I congratulate Christine Grahame on securing the debate and on raising awareness in the chamber and throughout Scotland of the tragic loss of HMT Lancastria at Saint-Nazaire on 17 June 1940, during the withdrawal of the British expeditionary force from France. As other members have stated, congratulations are also due to the Lancastria Association of Scotland for its work and excellent campaigning on the issue. Christine Grahame asked whether I was willing to meet her and representatives of the association to discuss the matter; I am more than happy to offer to do so.
To this day, the terrible event that we are debating represents the greatest loss of life in British maritime history. As Murdo Fraser pointed out, it was also the greatest single loss of British forces in the second world war. The loss of 4,000 lives, of which around 400 were Scots—even those are merely estimates—is horrific enough, but for the loss of the Lancastria to be officially denied for so long is not only insulting to the memory of those who perished but offensive to those who survived the tragedy of that day 67 years ago.
The Scottish Government firmly believes that every Scot who has made the ultimate sacrifice in defence of their nation, and the courage and valour of Scots who have fought—and who still fight today—to defend our values and our democracy should be appropriately recognised and commemorated. They deserve nothing less than our overwhelming gratitude and support. It is particularly important that we do not allow our young people, for whom there may not be any direct family link to the military, to forget.
As we have already heard, the survivors of the Lancastria believe that they have been denied that recognition. This Government applauds the efforts of the Lancastria Association of Scotland in campaigning on behalf of those who were killed and those who survived.
On Monday this week, I met Derek Twigg MP, the Under-Secretary of State for Defence and Minister for Veterans at the Ministry of Defence. I raised the issue of the Lancastria and the association's campaign. It is clearly preferable that the loss of all 4,000 lives—not just the 400-plus Scots involved—should be commemorated, and in that regard there is an important role for the United Kingdom Government to play. Mr Twigg has promised to come back to me in due course with the MOD's position. If appropriate, I will be happy to share those views with Christine Grahame and other members.
This Government supports efforts to raise a permanent memorial to the incident in the grounds of the Golden Jubilee national hospital in Clydebank, which Des McNulty spoke about. The ship was built on that site, and we fully endorse a previous minister's approval of the scheme, subject to statutory planning permissions.
I should perhaps reiterate that the long-standing policy of successive Governments has been that the cost of erecting memorials and associated projects is not usually met from public funds but from private donations and/or public subscription. Neither the Scottish Government nor the Ministry of Defence has responsibility for the funding or maintenance of memorials.
I am aware of the petition presented to the Public Petitions Committee by the association, which calls on the Parliament to commission a commemorative medal for the Scots who were caught up in the terrible actions of that day in 1940. I will come to that in a moment. Colleagues will, however, appreciate that calls for a more formal, official recognition of the tragedy and the designation of the Lancastria's final resting place as an official war grave are outside the competence of the Parliament and fall to the UK Government to resolve, although I am more than happy to support them.
Each year on remembrance Sunday, Scots the length and breadth of our nation gather to commemorate those who, in the words of the Kohima epitaph, gave their tomorrow so that we can have our today. Each of us finds our own way to remember those who fell, but I wonder how many of us are aware of the tragic events of 17 June 1940.
Being aware is not always the same as recognising the sacrifice. Indeed, a recurring theme in discussions with veteran's organisations is not a desire for grand gestures or even memorials but for simple recognition of the endeavour, courage, valour and sacrifice of the Scots men and women in our armed forces. The Scottish Government and the Parliament can be proud of the support that both have shown since devolution for Scotland's veteran's community. We have an opportunity today to continue that tradition of recognition of and support for those who have given the utmost sacrifice in our name and in defence of our nation.
The Government is therefore happy to support the call in the motion for official recognition from the UK Government of the tragic event, and it awaits a response to the representations made to the Minister for Veterans. I hope that we get a positive response from Mr Twigg that gives due recognition to all the fallen from this terrible event. If we do not, I can confirm today that, in light of the unique scale and enormity of the disaster, this Government will act to put right years of neglect and lack of recognition by providing a commemorative medal for each Scot who gave the ultimate sacrifice in the tragedy. I believe that that is the appropriate and right action for the Scottish Government to take on behalf of the survivors and those who fell in the Lancastria disaster.
Meeting closed at 17:49.