Parliamentary Bureau Motion
The next item of business is consideration of a parliamentary bureau motion, on the establishment and membership of parliamentary committees, and one amendment to that motion.
Before I move the motion that is before Parliament today, I would like to take the opportunity to outline some of the guiding principles behind it.
We are following on from the first session of the Parliament. During the past four years, the Parliament's committee structure—and the work of its committees—became one of the jewels of devolution and one of the things for which this Parliament was most noted and which was treasured most by the wider public and civic Scotland. It is important that, in the new session, the new committees begin their work and build on the achievements of the first session. Therefore, we are pleased to have been able to lodge this motion at this particular time.
It is suggested that the Parliament's structure should be streamlined and that the number of committees should be reduced from 17 to 16. We have aligned the committees' remits a little more with ministerial portfolios for the ease of committees that do scrutiny work and to ensure that ministers can attend meetings and be fully held to account. The revised structure and make-up of committees will give them more balanced and meaningful remits, which should in turn help with the job of scrutiny and should enhance the opportunity for scrutiny.
Following the election, the new Parliament is more diverse than it was before and the Parliamentary Bureau's challenge has been to try to reflect that diversity. That there has been a high level of co-operation across the parties to try to achieve that objective is pleasing. At this stage, we have been able to identify 15 places for those members who are not in the four major parliamentary parties—those committee places were identified as available for allocation at a meeting of the bureau last Tuesday. I understand that all but one of those places has now been taken up, and the motion reflects that.
I move,
That the Parliament shall establish committees of the Parliament as follows—
Name of Committee: Audit
Remit: Set out in Rule 6.7
7
Convenership: The Convener will be a member of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party and the Deputy Convener will be a member of the Scottish National Party.
Membership: Rhona Brankin, Susan Deacon, Robin Harper, Margaret Jamieson, George Lyon, Mr Kenny MacAskill, Mr Brian Monteith
Name of Committee: Equal Opportunities
Remit: Set out in Rule 6.9
9
Convenership: The Convener will be a member of the Labour Party and the Deputy Convener will be a member of the Scottish Liberal Democrat Party.
Membership: Shiona Baird, Frances Curran, Marlyn Glen, Marilyn Livingstone, Campbell Martin, Mrs Nanette Milne, Cathy Peattie, Mr Keith Raffan, Elaine Smith
Name of Committee: European and External Relations
Remit: Set out in Rule 6.8
9
Convenership: The Convener will be a member of the Scottish National Party and the Deputy Convener will be a member of the Labour Party.
Membership: Dennis Canavan, Mrs Margaret Ewing, Phil Gallie, Mr John Home Robertson, Gordon Jackson, Richard Lochhead, Mr Alasdair Morrison, Irene Oldfather, Mr Keith Raffan
Name of Committee: Finance
Remit: Set out in Rule 6.6
9
Convenership: The Convener will be a member of the Labour Party and the Deputy Convener will be a member of the Scottish National Party.
Membership: Ms Wendy Alexander, Mr Ted Brocklebank, Fergus Ewing, Kate Maclean, Des McNulty, Mr Jim Mather, Dr Elaine Murray, Mr Jeremy Purvis, John Swinburne
Name of Committee: Public Petitions
Remit: Set out in Rule 6.10
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Convenership: The Convener will be a member of the Labour Party and the Deputy Convener will be a member of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party.
Membership: Jackie Baillie, Helen Eadie, Linda Fabiani, Carolyn Leckie, Michael McMahon, John Farquhar Munro, John Scott, Mike Watson, Ms Sandra White
Name of Committee: Procedures
Remit: Set out in Rule 6.4
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Convenership: The Convener will be a member of the Scottish Liberal Democrat Party and the Deputy Convener will be a member of the Labour Party.
Membership: Mr Richard Baker, Mark Ballard, Bruce Crawford, Cathie Craigie, Karen Gillon, Mr Jamie McGrigor, Iain Smith
Name of Committee: Standards
Remit: Set out in Rule 6.5
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Convenership: The Convener will be a member of the Scottish National Party and the Deputy Convener will be a member of the Labour Party.
Membership: Bill Butler, Alex Fergusson, Donald Gorrie, Mr Kenneth Macintosh, Tricia Marwick, Alex Neil, Karen Whitefield
Name of Committee: Subordinate Legislation
Remit: Set out in Rule 6.11
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Convenership: The Convener will be a member of the Labour Party and the Deputy Convener will be a member of the Scottish Socialist Party.
Membership: Gordon Jackson, Dr Sylvia Jackson, Mr Stewart Maxwell, Christine May, Mike Pringle, Murray Tosh
Name of Committee: Communities
Remit: To consider and report on matters relating to anti-social behaviour, housing and area regeneration, poverty, voluntary sector issues, charity law and religious and faith organisations and matters relating to the land use planning system and building standards and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Communities.
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Convenership: The Convener will be a member of the Labour Party and the Deputy Convener will be a member of the Scottish Liberal Democrat Party.
Membership: Cathie Craigie, Donald Gorrie, Patrick Harvie, Johann Lamont, Maureen Macmillan, Campbell Martin, Mary Scanlon, Elaine Smith, Stewart Stevenson
Name of Committee: Education
Remit: To consider and report on matters relating to school and pre-school education and social work and such other matters relating to young people as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Education and Young People.
9
Convenership: The Convener will be a member of the Scottish Liberal Democrat Party and the Deputy Convener will be a member of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party.
Membership: Ms Wendy Alexander, Rhona Brankin, Robert Brown, Ms Rosemary Byrne, Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, Fiona Hyslop, Mr Adam Ingram, Mr Kenneth Macintosh, Dr Elaine Murray
Name of Committee: Enterprise and Culture
Remit: To consider and report on matters relating to the Scottish economy, business and industry, energy, training, further and higher education, lifelong learning and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning; and matters relating to tourism, culture and sport and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport.
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Convenership: The Convener will be a member of the Scottish National Party and the Deputy Convener will be a member of the Labour Party.
Membership: Brian Adam, Mr Richard Baker, Chris Ballance, Susan Deacon, Murdo Fraser, Christine May, Alasdair Morgan, Mr Jamie Stone, Mike Watson
Name of Committee: Environment and Rural Development
Remit: To consider and report on matters relating to rural development, environment and natural heritage, agriculture and fisheries and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Environment and Rural Development.
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Convenership: The Convener will be a member of the Labour Party and the Deputy Convener will be a member of the Scottish Green Party.
Membership: Sarah Boyack, Roseanna Cunningham, Mr Rob Gibson, Karen Gillon, Alex Johnstone, Maureen Macmillan, Mr Alasdair Morrison, Nora Radcliffe, Eleanor Scott
Name of Committee: Health
Remit: To consider and report on matters relating to health policy and the National Health Service in Scotland and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Health and Community Care.
9
Convenership: The Convener will be a member of the Scottish National Party and the Deputy Convener will be a member of the Labour Party.
Membership: Mr David Davidson, Helen Eadie, Christine Grahame, Janis Hughes, Kate Maclean, Mr Duncan McNeil, Shona Robison, Mike Rumbles, Dr Jean Turner
Name of Committee: Justice 1
Remit: To consider and report on matters relating to the administration of civil and criminal justice, the reform of the civil and criminal law and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Justice, and the functions of the Lord Advocate other than as head of the systems of criminal prosecution and investigations of deaths in Scotland.
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Convenership: The Convener will be a member of the Labour Party and the Deputy Convener will be a member of the Scottish National Party.
Membership: Bill Butler, Marlyn Glen, Pauline McNeill, Michael Matheson, Margaret Mitchell, Mr Stewart Maxwell, Mrs Margaret Smith
Name of Committee: Justice 2
Remit: To consider and report on matters relating to the administration of civil and criminal justice, the reform of the civil and criminal law and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Justice, and the functions of the Lord Advocate other than as head of the systems of criminal prosecution and investigations of deaths in Scotland.
7
Convenership: The Convener will be a member of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party and the Deputy Convener will be a member of the Labour Party.
Membership: Jackie Baillie, Scott Barrie, Colin Fox, Miss Annabel Goldie, Mike Pringle, Nicola Sturgeon, Karen Whitefield
Name of Committee: Local Government and Transport
Remit: To consider and report on matters relating to local government (including local government finance), cities and community planning and such other matters (excluding finance other than local government finance) which fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Finance and Public Services; and matters relating to transport which fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Transport.
9
Convenership: The Convener will be a member of the Labour Party and the Deputy Convener will be a member of the Scottish National Party.
Membership: Dr Sylvia Jackson, Rosie Kane, Michael McMahon, Mr Bruce McFee, Paul Martin, Bristow Muldoon, David Mundell, Iain Smith, Mr Andrew Welsh
The Communities, Education, Enterprise and Culture, Environment and Rural Development, Justice 1, Justice 2, Health and Local Government and Transport Committees shall be established for the whole session of the Parliament.
Control has been the Executive's guiding principle in the discussions on committee membership. The Executive wants to ensure that it has a voting majority on all committees. It is absolutely ridiculous that the membership of the committee with responsibility for health is to be reduced from 11 members to nine members, given the importance of health and the responsibility that the Parliament must assume in respect of health in the next four years. The membership of a committee with responsibility for health should be increased instead of reduced. At the very least, keeping the membership the same would allow Dr Jean Turner—
Will the member give way?
I am sorry, but I would like to finish on the point that I am making.
Dr Jean Turner is a unique MSP. She was elected on the basis of a specific health-related issue in Scotland and deserves to be a member of the Health Committee to represent that view. However, she will be allowed on that committee only if members of other parties that significantly increased their representation in the Parliament agree to stand down—namely, members of the Scottish Green Party and the Scottish Socialist Party. In other words, there has been an attempt to gerrymander the committee. My amendment proposes to increase the size of the committee in order to accommodate Carolyn Leckie, who is the only practising health professional to have been elected to the Parliament, and Dr Jean Turner. Is that too much to ask? I ask members to vote for the amendment.
I move amendment S2M-107.1, to leave out from "9" to "Turner" and insert:
"11
Convenership: The Convener will be a member of the Scottish National Party and the Deputy Convener will be a member of the Labour Party.
Membership: Mr David Davidson, Helen Eadie, Christine Grahame, Janis Hughes, Kate Maclean, Mr Duncan McNeil, Shona Robison, Mike Rumbles, Dr Jean Turner, Carolyn Leckie".
For my satisfaction, will the minister explain two things to enable me to vote for the motion? The motion states:
"The Communities, Education, Enterprise and Culture, Environment and Rural Development, Justice 1, Justice 2, Health and Local Government and Transport Committees shall be established for the whole session of the Parliament."
Is that a sinister remark? Will the other committees not be established for that time? What is the background to that statement? I hope that there is nothing sinister in it.
There is an almost complete change of personnel in many committees from the last time round. Will the bureau consider a satisfactory way in which the new committees can benefit from the knowledge that was built up by the previous committees? It would be a pity if such knowledge went to waste.
On behalf of the Scottish Green Party, I would like to say that we were disappointed by several aspects of the proposed committee arrangements.
We think that it was a fundamental mistake effectively to abolish the Transport and the Environment Committee and to split its work between a local government committee and a rural development committee. We feel that a combined Environment and Rural Development Committee will find it hard to scrutinise properly the Executive's proposed green agenda—the so-called green thread.
In addition, we are concerned that many urban environmental issues might not receive proper attention in the Environment and Rural Development Committee. Equally, rural Scotland is still in crisis and our agriculture and fishing sectors need proper attention. We do not believe that the combined Environment and Rural Development Committee will be able to provide that properly.
The committee faces a work load of at least eight bills, excluding member's bills. It will have to deal with three big environment bills—on strategic environmental assessment, nature conservation and water services—two rural development bills, on crofting and the protection of animals, and I believe that there may be further bills on fishing issues. That is a huge work load for one committee, and will leave it with little time to consider anything other than legislation.
We also think that it is unfortunate that restricting the committee size to nine members will not allow more than one Green, socialist or independent the chance to sit on a committee. In the case of the Health Committee, that means that three of the members with the most practical knowledge of health issues—Eleanor Scott, who, as she has mentioned, is a practising health professional, Carolyn Leckie and Jean Turner—are not all able to go on that committee.
What about Janis Hughes?
Yes. I defer to members on that point.
Unfortunately, our protestations on those issues have fallen on deaf ears. Therefore, we go forward with the proposal in the motion under protest.
Many of us had reservations about the proposal in the motion; I raised some reservations at the bureau. For example, I think that we could well have got by with one justice committee. I think that the role of the enterprise et al committee—as I call it—is far too comprehensive and all-encompassing; especially as the Executive promises to do a lot for enterprise. However, what was finally agreed is a fair resolution to those problems.
The fact is that in any negotiation in an organisation one cannot always get what one wants. There are lawyers in the Parliament who have never been on a justice committee, farmers who have never been on a rural affairs committee and members who have been in local government who have never been on a local government committee. Carolyn Leckie may well have a degree of expertise that she could bring to the Health Committee, but at the end of the day she is in the same position as many other members, in that their particular line of expertise has not enabled them to be on a certain committee.
I raised another issue yesterday in a perhaps uncharacteristic effort to be conciliatory. It is open to any member, under important provisions in the standing orders, to attend a committee and to participate in the work of that committee. I know that Mr Sheridan, properly, on several occasions, has gone to committees and participated in the questioning of witnesses.
We cannot all get what we want out of this life. I have spent much of my political career as a minority and I, for one, would always attempt to support the rights of minorities. The socialists, the Greens and the independents have come out of this with a pretty fair deal.
I speak against the amendment in Tommy Sheridan's name. I do so as a member who came to this Parliament four years ago with 20 years' experience as a health service professional. Although in 1999 the Health and Community Care Committee was my first choice of committee, I was placed on the Transport and the Environment Committee. Did I complain about that decision or question it? No.
Yes you did.
Perhaps I did privately, but did I bring the matter to the chamber for discussion? No, because I did not believe that it was my right to be a member of the Health and Community Care Committee because I came from a health background. I knew that I was elected to the Parliament to represent my constituents' views on many different areas and that I could do that on whichever committee I was placed.
It is also worth remembering that the committee that we are talking about deals not just with health issues per se, but has a wide-ranging remit in areas connected to care. Therefore, the committee benefits from the wide range of knowledge and experience that members can bring to bear. That is why I think that the mix of committee members that the motion proposes is appropriate. Therefore, I oppose the amendment that is in Mr Sheridan's name.
This is quite an embarrassing situation. The issue is not about the expertise of individuals but about what certain parties and independents represent. It is unfortunate that the Parliament has not taken the opportunity to demonstrate that it is willing to go that wee bit further to maintain what is the status quo, as far as I know, of having 11 members on the Health Committee. That would ensure that Dr Jean Turner, who won her seat on the first-past-the-post vote, on a specific health issue, in the biggest swing ever, is included by right on the Health Committee. [Interruption.]
Will members let me finish? Certain members in the chamber have complained about bad behaviour and rude manners, but I have never met such a bunch of rude and badly behaved people in all my life.
Will the member take an intervention?
No. My time is limited. I will let Patricia Ferguson in in a minute, but I want to finish my point first.
Dr Jean Turner, who had the biggest swing, should, by right, be on the Health Committee. I do not think that my expertise as a professional midwife should guarantee me a place on the Health Committee; however, I have been involved at the heart of 62 days of strike action on behalf of low-paid health workers and I have represented directly 5,000 health workers across the spectrum. Those people expect me, on behalf of the Scottish Socialist Party, to have a voice on the Health Committee.
I do not think that I am better than anyone else. The issue is proportionality, representation and inclusiveness. Why not have one more position for the SSP or the Greens on the Health Committee? I am told that the Health Committee is a popular committee. I am sure that many members on the Labour benches would be more than willing for there to be an extra place on the Health Committee. I think that the onus is on the Executive. Why should there not be that extra place? What is the problem?
Will the member take an intervention?
I am finished.
Fiona Hyslop and Bill Aitken took a positive approach to resolving the issues in what I think is a fair manner, particularly for the minor parties. Members can imagine the howls of righteous indignation had the major parties done what they could have done under the d'Hondt system and ensured that only on the 15th pick did one Green get the place on one committee, and that was it. However, we did not do that. The four main parties worked together to give places to the minor parties. [Applause.]
I agree with Bill Aitken's point that any member is able to attend any committee, which firmly deals with Carolyn Leckie's point. In Patricia Ferguson's motion, the name of Dr Jean Turner appears under the membership of the Health Committee. She will be on the Health Committee—let there be no doubt about that. It is curious that the SSP has made a song and dance about the issue—irrespective of its need to make a song and dance about everything—although I can well envisage what the SSP might have done had we not made places available in the way that we have.
I take Bill Aitken's point about the justice committees, because the preferred solution would have been to have one justice committee. However, even a passing reference to the partnership agreement shows the weight of legislation that will come through, which Mr Aitken would acknowledge. That legislation necessitates having two justice committees. It will be essential to have them.
On the rural and environment areas, there is no perfect model. I inform Mr Ballard that there was no stand-alone environment committee in the last session. I think that he made the relevant point himself, which is that nature conservation, water services and strategic environmental assessment are three significant areas for environmental legislation. I am sure that he and members of his party—including Eleanor Scott, who, if the motion is passed, will be deputy convener of the Environment and Rural Development Committee, a position which Patricia Ferguson gave up to allow the Greens that role—will have the opportunity to play a full role in such legislation. Further, the committee will have in Sarah Boyack a member and a convener—if that is confirmed—who is committed to the environment. The suggestion that the Executive is not taking the environment seriously is wide of the mark.
On conveners and deputy conveners, it is important to recognise that the result that we have before us today was arrived at using the d'Hondt system in the same way as it was used four years ago on the basis that that was the fairest way to proceed at the time.
Those who complain about the system should bear in mind the fact that Patricia Ferguson gave up two deputy convenerships that would otherwise have been given to Labour. I notice that the SSP has not chosen to take up the one that it was offered—I wonder why. Further, they might wish to observe that having the 15th pick out of 16 convenerships might have been rather worse for the minor parties than the situation that we have before us.
The motion is fair and reflects the considerable efforts that have been made to accommodate the minor parties. I commend it to the Parliament.