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Chamber and committees

Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, 30 Jan 2008

Meeting date: Wednesday, January 30, 2008


Contents


National Economic Forum

The Deputy Convener:

We move to item 3. Members have a paper before them on the Government's establishment of a national economic forum, including a response from the deputy director of the enterprise and industry division of the Scottish Government. Do members have any comment?

Gavin Brown:

I ask the committee to note my great disappointment at the Government's response to our suggestion. Having looked back at reports on the issue over the past couple of years, I note that there was cross-party consensus, with no objection from any party, that a good way forward would be to establish some kind of national economic forum, involving all business groups—small, medium and large—the college sector, the STUC and the universities. There was cross-party consensus on the need for a long-term strategy to take Scotland forward—our predecessor committee spoke of a decade-long strategy, but we may need it to be longer term than that. It should survive any change of Government or composition of the Parliament. Our predecessor committee's report was excellent in putting forward that view.

The proposal was partly built on the model of the Republic of Ireland's National Economic and Social Forum. The Irish forum, which I think has been going since 1993, includes representatives of the academic and business sectors as well as seven members of Fianna Fáil, three members of Fine Gael, two Labour Party members, one Progressive Democrat member and one independent. A broad political spectrum is represented on the forum. We should ask the Government to rethink the composition of the national economic forum, which should be opened up to all parties.

The letter from the deputy director of the enterprise and industry division says:

"Ministers are not minded to involve MSPs in this body. The Forum is a numbers-limited group."

However, it goes on to say:

"The Forum will not have fully fixed membership and will retain flexibility".

The letter is contradictory. If we are to build consensus on the economy over the long term, forum membership should include MSPs from all sides of the chamber.

Dave Thompson:

I am not convinced that it would be helpful to have MSPs on the forum. If that were to happen, the danger is that our party-political views would interfere with discussion on the economy. There are advantages in letting the forum get on with its work without direct political involvement. There is plenty of time and room for political involvement in and debate on the forum's findings. The forum is, after all, an advisory body. All its discussions will be brought back to the Government and Parliament in due course.

Lewis Macdonald:

Clearly, there are different views on the issue. Gavin Brown's point is a fair one. As he pointed out, the Government based its decision in part on the argument that the forum is "a numbers-limited group" but went on to say that the core membership would be augmented by other members who would attend according to the theme.

In the first instance, we should reply to the Government, pointing out the paradox and asking for an explanation. The Government may have a perfectly good explanation and we should at least ask what it is. The presumption of having flexibility but no room for MSPs is an odd one. We should see what the Government's response is before coming to a final view.

Christopher Harvie:

As I am an historian, it is my business to introduce dullness from the past into the debate. Two similar bodies were set up in the past: the Scottish Economic Committee, which Walter Elliott set up in 1936; and the Scottish Economic Conference, which Arthur Woodburn set up in 1948. The format that I would want us to avoid is that of the Scottish Economic Conference of 1948. It was representative of all sides of industry and politics, but it drowned itself in generalised discussions. I believe that those discussions were largely monopolised by Tom Johnston, who could conduct hour-long monologues. No one dared to interrupt him because he was so senior.

However, the Scottish Economic Committee struck me as interesting. It basically got four or five young academics, who were chosen by what the Germans would call a Kuratorium, to undertake original work on particular difficult issues that had come up. It reported several times before 1939—one of its best reports was on the Highlands—and it led to James Bowie's book "The future of Scotland", which was published in that year. The quality of the work that the committee did was good because it was done at a hands-off level. It got its executive chosen and then acted as a Kuratorium, which met occasionally to find out what had happened.

David Whitton:

It is always dangerous to follow Christopher Harvie, but it is one of the great enjoyments of the committee that I learn something every time I turn up. I am glad that he mentioned Tom Johnston, as he represented the seat that I now represent—however, that is an aside.

The letter from Jamie Hume says that the forum will be "a numbers-limited group". However, it goes on to say:

"We expect around 120 delegates to attend the first meeting."

If the forum has 120 delegates, how will it get anything done? The danger is that some person—sadly, not Tom Johnston, who is no longer with us—will dominate the conversation and other views will not be heard. I am sure that the membership will be representative, but 120 delegates seems an awful lot.

I have no view either way about whether we should be involved in the forum's membership. I think that it will come back to us—we can ask for it to do so—anyway. There are various other avenues that members can pursue to make their voices heard on the economic future of the country. However, it seems to me that 120 delegates is too many. I hope that they are able to channel their thought processes down the way, so that the forum does not end up being simply a massive talking shop that leads to nothing happening.

The Deputy Convener:

I think that it would be rather churlish of us not to welcome the fact that there is to be a national economic forum. The discussion is around various aspects of one particular point—the membership of the forum and whether it ought to include politicians. There seem to be a range of views on the matter, and it seems that the letter that we have received from Jamie Hume contains an internal paradox. He suggests that the forum will be "a numbers-limited group" but that it will have the flexibility to include 120 people.

I do not know about the rest of the committee, but I am content with Lewis Macdonald's idea that we write to tease out that internal paradox. I suggest that we write to Mr Swinney on the matter, expressing our concern and asking whether he can explain in a bit more detail why the Government took the view that it did not want to have politicians on the forum. We can also ask him how it is consistent that the number of members will be limited but will be flexible enough to include 120 people, and how that will allow the forum to deliver. Are members content with that course of action?

Dave Thompson:

I would go along with that. We need to write to tease that out. If we are going to write anyway, we should also ask what Mr Swinney feels is the relationship between the national economic forum and the business in the Parliament conference, which will take place next month. That is quite important. I would like to know whether he foresees the conference continuing or whether it will be superseded by the national economic forum.

The Deputy Convener:

I do not think that that is quite within his gift. The conference is a creature of the Parliament—in particular, of this committee—that the First Minister and the minister who is responsible for our area of work are always invited to attend and speak at. However, we could ask in the letter how Mr Swinney sees the business in the Parliament conference—and, indeed, any other event—fitting in with the Council of Economic Advisers and the national economic forum. It would be useful to know what the strategic view is of how it is all going to bind together.

Nevertheless, we ought to start by saying that we welcome the fact that the forum is going to happen. We can then present the questions that we have around it. Are members content that we proceed along those lines?

Members indicated agreement.

I am content to go along with the committee's decision. Ultimately, I would prefer something stronger, but I am sure that we can deal with that when we get a response.

Once we have the response, we can have another discussion on the matter.

Gavin Brown:

The forum offers a unique opportunity for Government, Parliament and business to engage with one another at the same time, instead of one by one. It presents a unique opportunity, which is why I have stressed the views that I have expressed this morning.

The Deputy Convener:

I have been an advocate of the Irish model for many years, and the idea of having a consensus view on the direction of travel and building consensus around an appropriate vehicle is undoubtedly attractive to me. There is no doubt that a political input at some point is appropriate, and it is not unreasonable for us to ask why that is not the model that the Government has chosen to follow in setting up the national economic forum. If we disagree with the response that we receive from the minister, we can have that debate then.

I close the public part of the meeting as we go into private for our session on the tourism inquiry.

Meeting continued in private until 10:55.


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