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Chamber and committees

European and External Relations Committee, 26 Oct 2004

Meeting date: Tuesday, October 26, 2004


Contents


Convener's Report

The Convener:

Item 3 is the convener's report, which has been circulated to members. There are four specific issues and we will take them one by one. The first is a letter from the Scottish Executive on the UK presidency of the European Union from 1 July 2005 and the proposed involvement of the Scottish Executive. The Minister for Finance and Public Service Reform is giving us advance notice of several events that are planned around the UK presidency.

I have two points. First, we should have the opportunity to question the minister. I will take the committee's views on whether that would be appropriate, as I understand that there have been discussions about the appearance of UK Government ministers at the committee. We should at least hear from Mr McCabe on the issue as we get closer to 1 July 2005, but it might be appropriate to hear from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office about what it is anticipated will happen during the presidency.

Secondly, following on from our discussion at the previous meeting about our concern that the annual report of the Scottish Executive's EU office was more of an action list than a strategy, we want to hear from the minister about some of the Executive's strategic perspectives on the UK presidency and what we might expect from ministers.

Mr Raffan:

It would be good to have the minister before the committee sooner rather than later. He makes the point that the UK presidency coincides with the G8 summit and it would be interesting to question him about that, particularly because I understand that a cross-cutting committee of the Executive is considering how to showcase Scotland at the G8 summit and during the presidency. What kind of events is the Executive planning? Perth and Kinross Council has been planning, as has the Executive, and it would be interesting to hear about that work at an early stage.

The minister has helpfully listed the UK presidency events in Scotland, which seem to be concentrated in Edinburgh and Glasgow. We should be holding those events outside the cities. There are a couple in Stirling, one in Aberdeen, one in the Borders and one in St Andrews—by my reckoning, anyway—but otherwise they seem far too centred on Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Irene Oldfather:

Following on from the points that Keith Raffan has made, it is important to recognise that some of the events are fairly major, and that there can be logistical difficulties with hosting them outwith Edinburgh.

The commission of the Committee of the Regions of which I am a member is very open to holding a meeting here during the UK presidency in the second half of next year. The UK delegation is willing to come to Edinburgh, which is noted at the bottom of page 2 of the list before us, and the Commission for Economic and Social Policy is also willing to come here. A formal bid has to be made for that and I have been in discussion with the Presiding Officer about the matter. We have a note of the requirements of any external commission meeting. One of the difficulties is that a significant number of interpreting booths is needed. Following enlargement, there are now about 19 or 20 Community languages and a venue that can supply that number of interpreting booths is required. Therefore, as I said, there are some logistical difficulties with going outside Edinburgh. Like Keith Raffan, I am very much in favour of taking politics and government out to people, and I would love to propose Ayrshire for the venue. However, I do not think that, technically, we could handle the event there.

I am very much in favour of bringing a commission of the Committee of the Regions to Scotland. I am certainly pushing hard to bring that meeting here and I hope that the European and External Relations Committee will support the bid. It is currently with the Presiding Officer and the Parliament's external liaison unit, which could consider whether we can accommodate the event with respect to the logistics and to the number of people who would attend. It would be tremendous to host such a meeting here in our new Scottish Parliament building.

Mr Home Robertson:

The Executive's letter is a helpful reply. The list of meetings and events in Scotland during the UK presidency is impressive, up to a point. What is missing is anything in the way of ministerial-level or Council of the EU meetings in Scotland. I may be out of date but, as I recall—certainly, as far as some portfolios were concerned, this used to be the practice—during the course of each presidency, British ministers who chaired the various council meetings during the six months would hold an informal council in their home areas. I was parliamentary private secretary to Jack Cunningham when he was Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and I remember that he took the opportunity to hold an informal meeting of agriculture ministers in the north of England. That was quite useful at the time in various ways.

Alistair Darling, the UK Secretary of State for Transport, could therefore have a heaven-sent opportunity to make colleagues in other parts of the European Union more aware of, for example, the situation with ferry transport in Scotland or the problems of remoteness. It may be too late to start inserting things into the diary at this stage, but I would like to hope that such ideas could be explored.

There was a heads of Government summit at the Palace of Holyroodhouse in 1992—I seem to remember that many of us demonstrated outside, but those days are long gone.

Was that not a Commonwealth event?

No, it was the EU heads of Government summit.

Mrs Ewing:

I agree that the Executive's reply is helpful, although I notice that a lot of the proposals are still to be confirmed. I endorse the feeling that there appears to be an emphasis on the central belt. There are direct links from Edinburgh, Glasgow and London to places such as Inverness and Aberdeen and I do not see why we could not do more up in those areas. That would be worth while, especially given what is happening with regional development and so on. The economies in those areas are important to any discussions. I think that we should submit a bid for one council meeting in Scotland.

Given that Scotland is supposed to lead for the UK in the agriculture and fisheries council—the meetings of which fall in December each year—it would be excellent if we could bring that council to Scotland. The meeting might attract many demonstrations outside, but hosting it would be important for Scotland as it would highlight the issues that exist.

In the run-up to holding the presidency, there are usually inward visits from delegations from other Parliaments in the European Union. I know that from having served for so long on the European Scrutiny Committee at Westminster. I wonder whether approaches have been made to such delegations to suggest that they might visit the Scottish Parliament while they are visiting the UK. That could be helpful, in particular for some of the accession states that have long-standing connections with Scotland.

Phil Gallie:

I go along entirely with Margaret Ewing's point about the agriculture and fisheries council. I had intended to pick up on several other points, but if Mr McCabe is to give oral evidence to the committee, it might be better if I ask him to expand on the issues then, rather than waste time going into the details just now. I back the convener's opening suggestion that we should invite Mr McCabe to come before the committee.

The Convener:

Let me draw our discussion to a conclusion. We should invite Mr McCabe to appear before the committee to set out further the thinking on the Scottish Executive's input into the UK presidency of the EU. We probably want to hear from him no later than March of next year, but we will bid for him to come before us as early in the new year as is practicable. I suspect that our work programme is such that we will draw the report on our inquiry to a conclusion in January, so it will be the turn of the year before we can call him to give evidence on the UK presidency. He will, of course, appear before us for our current inquiry.

In advance of the minister's appearance before us, I will write to him to highlight the other three points that members have raised. First, I will ask about the possibility that further council meetings, whether formal or informal, might be added to the programme. Secondly, I will question the central-belt dominance in the geographical location of the meetings that have been proposed. Thirdly, I will try to determine the extent to which events planned around the G8 summit have been synchronised with the events surrounding the UK presidency of the EU.

On the parliamentary dimension, I understand that the Presiding Officer is dealing with the matter of the proposed meeting of one of the commissions of the Committee of the Regions. Obviously, he will advise us about his discussions and deliberations. The final point concerns inward visits of other parliamentarians. The Parliament's external liaison unit has a generally positive attitude towards welcoming delegations, and we would certainly want to play a part in welcoming them.

Mr Raffan:

I agree, but am concerned about the minister appearing in March. You said "no later than March", but I think that he should appear no later than December, as it would be unfair to have him before the committee and expect him to take on board our views and to make changes at such a late stage. The more time we can give him, the greater flexibility he will have in taking on board our views and perhaps effecting some minor changes. Making major changes might be difficult. Seeing him should take no more than 30 or 40 minutes, so I do not see a reason for delaying meeting him until the new year.

The Convener:

Okay. I am happy to try to accelerate the timescale and to have Mr McCabe in front of us between now and then.

The second issue under the convener's report predates my convenership of the committee. A letter has been received from the Executive concerning a request by the committee for information on the review of concordats. I did not think that the reply was particularly informative, if I may be as generous as that.

That was probably the whole idea.

It might well have been. I think that we should ask for considerably more detail from Margaret Curran, particularly on which concordats have been reviewed and which have not.

And at whose request.

Indeed. We should also ask what material changes have been made to the concordats, so that we can continue to have some form of parliamentary understanding of those matters. From my recollection, the concordats are generally published.

Stephen Imrie (Clerk):

Yes. The concordats are publicly available documents. The overarching memorandum of understanding is also publicly available.

It would be helpful to have all of that set out for us by ministers in order to clarify matters for the committee.

Mr Raffan:

I totally agree. However, nearly half of the concordats have not been reviewed for four years, so I am not sure what the minister's definition of "periodically" is. It might be helpful for her to say how often they are reviewed, as it is clear that nine of them have not been reviewed since 2001. It would also be useful to have detailed background information on the routine and format of the reviews.

The Convener:

As there are no other comments, we will seek that information from the minister.

The third item under the convener's report is a letter that again follows up on an issue that was raised prior to my becoming convener of the committee—the European Commission's "political project". A reply has been received from Elizabeth Holt of the European Commission, which gives some clarification on the points that were raised.

Phil Gallie:

I raised the matter and I am grateful to Irene Oldfather for writing to the Commission about it. The response is illuminating. Apparently, the term "political project" should never have been used. That was the fault of the translators, who perhaps should have used the term "policy project". However, I am greatly concerned by that policy project.

I thought that you had reached a point of comfort on a European issue at long last, Mr Gallie.

Not at all.

I should not have allowed myself that piece of comfort.

Phil Gallie:

The letter says that

"COM (2004) 487 … is a Communication from the Commission to the Council and the European Parliament on the Financial Perspectives 2007 - 2013."

Perhaps the convener does not recall this, but all other committee members will be well aware that there is an intention in that document to impose taxes on the nation states from the centre—from the Commission. In itself, that creates a major political problem, particularly as the Commission now appears to want a blank cheque for its final budget. That cuts across the Government's policy. The Government—and Mr Brown in particular—wants to ensure that there is a ceiling on the amount of money that is committed to European coffers. Given Elizabeth Holt's clarification—for which I am grateful—we should pass the letter on to the Scottish Executive, as it has now made it clear that it backs the UK Government on funding issues.

We are back to that issue, are we?

Irene Oldfather:

I must disagree with Phil Gallie. The objective of writing the letter in the first place was to clarify a particular point that Phil Gallie raised about the Commission having a political dimension. To be fair, Liz Holt has answered the question clearly. Phil Gallie's points about the financial perspectives are a different matter. I think that we have already agreed to keep a careful watching brief on that matter, to which we will no doubt continually return. We should therefore lay the matter to rest.

The Convener:

The committee has already agreed that a paper on developments within the EU financial framework will be prepared. The clerks are working on that paper, which will come back to the committee for our consideration. Elizabeth Holt's letter certainly clarifies the point. It might not necessarily address all Mr Gallie's political concerns, but that would be a big task.

Mr Raffan:

Mr Gallie is always intent on scaremongering on such issues, but I thought that he would have been reassured by Liz Holt's comment in the third last paragraph of the letter that the content of the policy-based programme should not be

"pulled out of the blue by the Commission but"

should reflect

"a consensus based on the treaties, European Council conclusions, EP resolutions and so on."

It is clear that there is no basis for Phil Gallie's continuing paranoia.

Phil Gallie:

The last time I was told that I was scaremongering was when I said that there would be no change out of £100 million for the Scottish Parliament building, and we all know what happened with that. Therefore, scaremongering is perhaps justified.

I would like to return to the point of the letter. Elizabeth Holt's response to the term "political project" is somewhat surprising. There are, I think, 19 languages that are translated in the European Union and it is unacceptable that a mistake has been made in translation on such a sensitive issue. I note Elizabeth Holt's comments but, given the taxation aspects, "political project" was perhaps nearer to the truth than the new translation of "policy project".

Convener, given Mr Gallie's traumatic experience, would it be appropriate to arrange counselling for him?

The Convener:

I think that we will simply draw the matter to a close. We have said enough on this particular point.

The final point in the convener's report is the reply from Mr McCabe to my letter to his predecessor on the annual report of the Scottish Executive's EU office. The committee was concerned that the report was not especially informative—it was just an outline of events and did not really set out a perspective on the office's strategy, operation and performance.

As I was with the letter from Margaret Curran, I was a little concerned about the letter from Tom McCabe. It does not tell us terribly much and does not address the issues that I raised on behalf of the committee in my letter of 29 September. We asked for a more comprehensive perspective on what was planned and what strategic approach was to be adopted by the Executive's EU office, and we wanted the head of the office to appear before the committee to explain some of the priorities. Neither of those points has been addressed. With the committee's agreement, I propose to write back to the minister, reiterating the points and asking for a specific answer.

Irene Oldfather:

In fairness, Mr McCabe is volunteering to come to the committee to discuss these issues. It is a matter for committee members whether they prefer the original idea—which was that the head of the Brussels office who was responsible for the report should come to the committee—or whether they would prefer to hear from the minister. I am willing to hear what other committee members think. Initially, I thought that I would like to hear from the head of the Brussels office, but now the minister is willing to appear.

The minister might want to bring the head of the Brussels office with him. We could have two for the price of one.

That would be helpful. We will pursue that suggestion with the minister.

Mr Raffan:

The minister says that the committee is briefed fully by the regular presidency forward look and ministerial appearances. However, my experience is that the committee has not been fully briefed on the Executive's forward priority policy dossiers by ministerial appearances. I understand why—one minister cannot be expected to have a full command of every minister's brief. However, I am concerned that we have still not received replies to some questions that we asked Mr Kerr on his last appearance and which he said that he would pass to other ministers.

The situation is a bit inadequate, because often when a minister appears before us to take questions on the next six months, the answers are shallow, as he cannot give detailed answers when he is not the minister who is responsible for a subject. We must reconsider our system, because it is not adequate.

The point of asking for the head of the EU office to appear was to have that detailed dialogue. I propose to assert that to the minister; we will see what response we get.

Mr Home Robertson:

That is fair enough, but I urge caution if we are to invite representatives of the Executive's Finance and Central Services Department to give us comprehensive information. I doubt whether our clerks' word-processors have the capacity to download all that stuff.

We are looking for an idea of what the Executive intends to do on the front foot.

That is fair enough.

I do not want trees to be culled to put that into practice, but it would be nice to have an idea of what the Executive proposes to achieve.

The slight risk of entering a war of attrition exists. That would not be useful to the committee or anybody else.