European and External Relations Committee, 22 Jun 2004

Meeting date: Tuesday, June 22, 2004

Official Report 265KB pdf

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Promoting Scotland Worldwide Inquiry

Good afternoon, everyone. I welcome you to the 14th meeting in 2004 of the European and External Relations Committee. I will kick off by saying that we have received no apologies from members. At about 20 past 2, I will nip out for 10 or 15 minutes and the deputy convener, Irene Oldfather, will take over the chair while I represent the committee at the Parliamentary Bureau.

Our first item is evidence in our on-going flagship inquiry into the promotion of Scotland overseas. Today, our theme is education and international promotion. Our witnesses are Professor John Archer, who is convener elect of Universities Scotland as well as principal and vice-chancellor of Heriot-Watt University; Michael Bird, the director of the British Council Scotland; Mark Simmons, a manager of education UK Scotland, which is part of the British Council Scotland; and Lucy Butters, also from the British Council Scotland, but who is representing Scottish Networks International. We do not have time for long statements from the witnesses, but we would welcome a brief introduction from each of you before we proceed to questions. I ask Professor John Archer to begin.

As you have heard, my interest in international students arises partly through my being convener elect of Universities Scotland and the chair of education UK Scotland. I am happy to take questions on all sorts of areas, but I would be particularly interested in talking about fresh talent and the enlargement of the European Union if we have the opportunity to do so.

Thank you. I am sure that we will take you up on that offer.

Good afternoon. I lead a team of 50 British Council colleagues that is based at the Tun. We are looking forward to being your neighbours in October. The British Council has expanded significantly in Scotland since devolution. It has a policy on devolution that is explicit about the fact that the British Council represents the United Kingdom as a whole as well as each of the countries of the UK. As you know, we work in education, the arts, science, governance, law and human rights in 110 countries around the world. It is our job to make that network work for Scotland.

Good afternoon. I am the market development manager for education UK Scotland, an initiative that is managed by the British Council Scotland, although we receive significant funding from the Scottish Executive and the Scottish funding councils. We are very much driven by the education sector and our two primary areas of activity are raising awareness of Scottish education and training opportunities worldwide—specifically in eight priority markets—and supporting the international promotion activity of the Scottish education sector in trying to develop greater collaborative activity and cross-sectoral collaboration.

Good afternoon. I manage Scottish Networks International, which is another programme that is managed by the British Council Scotland. We work in partnership with, and with some funding from, Scottish Development International through Scottish Enterprise. The aims of Scottish Networks International are to enhance the educational experience of carefully selected international postgraduates, to promote and manage work placements for them and to maintain international business networks with them when they leave Scotland.

Thank you very much. Committee members will say to whom their questions are addressed, but if there is anything that you wish to add I will let you do so if you indicate that to me.

My question is to Professor Archer. I have read your written submission to the committee in which you state that, in 2001,

"almost 22,000 students from other countries came to Scotland and the number of overseas applications to Scottish universities has risen by almost a quarter since 2000."

Which countries in particular are involved and what are the implications of the different policies on student funding that exist north and south of the border?

There are some big issues in that question. Perhaps my colleagues from the education UK Scotland initiative would give a better overview of where the students come from, because they are monitoring that. We can come back to that issue.

Of the 22,000 or 23,000 international students in Scotland, about 85 per cent are in the higher education sector. Education UK Scotland is building on special relationships with particular countries to enhance the movement of students from there to Scotland. My colleagues from that initiative will provide later the detail of where the students come from.

Whether the policies that are being adopted both south of the border and north of the border will impact on international student recruitment is an important issue. I have two particular points to make. First, the state of the universities in Scotland and their ability to teach and do research will depend very much on the level of funding that they get. If there is a differential in funding that favours universities south of the border, the whole infrastructure in Scotland for opening up opportunities to students—international or otherwise—will be damaged. Therefore, we must get the funding right.

Secondly, the visa issue is still vexatious for international students coming to the UK from non-EU countries, who need visas in different ways. We can expand on that if the committee wishes us to do so. Basically, the policy of the Foreign Office and the universities is to get international students into the country, but the Home Office's efforts are sometimes counterproductive in that it does not provide a welcoming environment for students coming in from overseas.

Can you give us an example of when the Home Office is not welcoming?

The issue is about immigration officers at airports and ports of entry. There were situations last year in which students who were coming into the UK were given a hard time about why they wanted to come here to study. I know of occasions when students have just turned round and gone back to their home country.

I want to come in on that point. There is news on the wires today that the Home Office suggests that many of the 300 to 400 colleges—rather than universities—that encourage students to come to this country are bogus. Does that complicate the situation for you?

I am sure that it does. The phrase "bogus students" is unhelpful in our efforts to recruit bona fide international students. The matter to which you referred—I read about it in a newspaper rather than heard it on the radio—is associated particularly with private language schools, which is a different issue.

Education UK Scotland is the Scottish wing of the education UK initiative, which is a partnership between the British Council, particularly the Department for Education and Skills, and the Scottish Executive to raise awareness of educational opportunities in the UK generally. Through that partnership, we have been working hard over the past five years to try to streamline requirements for entry to the UK. We have worked with visa offices overseas and with the Home Office to improve the approach for students who apply for visas to gain entry to the UK.

Over the past five years, we have also introduced the right for international students to work part-time in the UK. They can now work for 20 hours a week part time, which they do partly to fund their studies in the UK. That initiative was introduced to increase the UK's share of the international student market from about 17 per cent in 1998-99 to 25 per cent by 2005.

Various points have come up in the witnesses' evidence. Obviously, they could write to the committee with information about the countries of origin of the international student intake. That information would be interesting, particularly in respect of students from non-EU countries, which is where some of the difficulties lie.

Mark Simmons mentioned the British Council. A lot of the work of the British Council gets little publicity. I have worked with the British Council for many years and have been involved in various trips. I know that you send out e-mails and so on, but do you think that the work that you undertake is given due publicity in the Scottish media outwith specialist magazines? We want to promote the role of the Scottish Parliament in international dimensions—leaving aside the issue of what is and is not reserved—because we are one of the newest democracies in Europe.

I thank you for your comments. You are quite right that there is a paradox. In 110 countries around the world, the British Council is incredibly well known, but it is not as well known in its own country as it deserves to be. We are doing something about that—specifically in Scotland—because we believe that we have good stories to tell. We want people in Scotland to know about our work because we want them to be aware of the opportunities that the British Council offers to people in Scotland. A range of initiatives is under way and the Scottish Parliament's move to its new building will be helpful in that respect. We are looking forward to conducting British Council international events in the new Parliament building, starting with an international conference on the state of democracy, which will bring together 100 participants from around the world. In itself, that kind of platform will do things for our profile in Scotland.

Your written evidence was so interesting that, to be honest, I could have done with more of it. Perhaps I could follow up some points with you in writing. Your submission says that the Scottish Executive and other organisations should feature higher education more prominently in their overseas promotional activity. That implies that you think that they do not do enough at the moment.

Higher education is extremely important to the Scottish economy. If you consider factors such as its impact on gross domestic product and spending power, you can see that it is one of Scotland's major business activities. With regard to international students and their impact on Scotland, it would be nice to think that the targets that the universities set for themselves would in some way be targets that are shared by the Scottish Executive, for example, and that they become part of something that we could shoot for in terms of our trying to achieve more than we do at the moment.

The worldwide international student market for education—which can be delivered either in Scotland or abroad—is a big market. Projections suggest that it is potentially worth many hundreds of billions of pounds. It would be nice if we had a policy that underpinned an aspiration to increase significantly the number of international students who come to Scotland. How can we get the opportunity to talk about that other than in terrific events such as this one today, when I can speak to members about how important the matter is and stress the need to ensure that its importance be made better understood?

The market is hugely competitive. Having lived in the United States of America for a few years, I am aware of the fact that Harvard University, Yale University and the other ivy league universities have huge endowments that are worth several billions of dollars. As you say, more than 200 university departments in Scotland are working on research that is of international excellence. You talked about the commercial application of that research in terms of contracts and so on, but I am worried about an aspect that occurs to me because of experience that I gained when I lived in the States and which was part of the fundraising campaign for my former university, the University of Cambridge. The point is that we are highly competitive, but it worries me that we are not sufficiently resourced to take on the ambitious role—it is right to be ambitious—of attracting overseas university students and being a focus of international excellence.

I agree with all that you say.

How should we address those issues?

One of the things that Scottish universities do is lever up public funding approximately twofold. You can imagine that if we had more public funding we would be able to lever up that funding even further. It is not always terribly helpful to compare us with the ivy league universities in the United States and their fundraising and financial positions because we have such a different economic system that does not allow some of the things that they have been able to do. However, in terms of our international competitiveness, you are absolutely right when you talk about the research and teaching capabilities that exist in Scotland.

There is a role for lobbying for donations from individuals, but obviously the tax situation is much more advantageous to people in the States.

I move on to another point about the increase in the number of universities that are setting up campuses abroad. Again, the Americans are way ahead of us on that. Your submission talks about e-learning, but has consideration been given to Universities Scotland setting up a campus in India, where the market for higher education will boom during the next 20 years, with a 10 per cent annual growth rate and a potential 200 million graduates by 2020? That could be a huge market for us and it is one with which we have a historical connection.

There are many different ways into those markets. I am sure that my colleagues would talk about what is happening in China and Hong Kong, particularly the joint campus opportunities that are being taken up at the moment.

Opportunities in distributed e-learning are very exciting for Scotland. As you know, Scotland uses an interactive university as the vehicle for Scottish universities. That depends on a partnership process and it is picking out a part of the market that is not particularly addressed by America and other countries. It focuses more on, for example, the foundation and undergraduate markets than on the postgraduate market, which is very crowded.

In the undergraduate market, an institution gets the edge when it partners another organisation in another country to deliver the educational programme so that there are teachers in addition to the material, which could be e-based learning. There is added value in working in-country with a partner and in supporting educational content—the Scottish content—and the universities that have provided that content, and in providing quality assurance and qualifications. The opportunities are great.

The interactive university has a bid in under the spending review to try to take that to another dimension.

India is one of the top four or five countries in terms of economic growth; its higher education market has huge potential and Scotland has a long-standing historical connection with India. Are we targeting it and if so, how?

India is one of the targets, as is China. I am sure that Mark Simmons will be able to talk about those places.

You asked about our priority markets and the countries that have the largest growth. Our largest market is the United States, followed by China and India. In the States, we have 2,500 students this year and there are slightly fewer than that in China. India has shown the most significant growth in the past two years; last year there was a 78 per cent increase in the number of Indians coming to study in Scotland. We predict that that figure will overtake the figures for students coming from China and the United States during the next four to five years. We are active in India.

In my team of three in Edinburgh I have a colleague who is responsible for the Indian market. We recently had an inward mission to Scotland of 15 high-school principals from northern India, who visited universities in Scotland. An outward mission will go high schools in southern India in November. We attend education fairs throughout India and we produce newsletters and magazines from Scotland that are sent out to our offices in India for distribution. India is one of the primary markets for the sector in Scotland, particularly in higher education. India, China and the United States are our primary markets overseas.

I need to leave in two seconds, so I will just ask a quick question of Universities Scotland and the British Council. The Scottish Executive and the Scotland Office have been involved in various initiatives, including friends of Scotland and globalscot, which bring together people from overseas who could help Scotland. It strikes me that universities must have a wealth of overseas contacts, including graduates who have made it big overseas and overseas-based academics. Has anyone been tapping into that resource? Is work going on between the Scottish Executive and universities? The British Council obviously has lots of contacts, too.

I will tell you about one initiative that is going through Scottish Enterprise. With the support of the universities, international advisory boards have been brought together and have been sharing information and knowledge about people. We have submitted the names of people who we think would be very useful in that regard; some of them have come and worked on those boards. I chair Scottish Enterprise Edinburgh and Lothian, so I know a little about the way some of the interactions are working—they are turning out quite well.

Scottish Networks International maintains a list of alumni that comprises more than 1,000 students who have gone back overseas. We work quite closely with globalscot. In fact, one of our students is on placement with globalscot at the moment. Such students have linked up with Scottish Development International offices on areas such as promotion of Scotland's economy. Within the British Council is education UK Scotland, through which we aim to increase collaboration. We hope to bring together over the next year some sort of alumni working group from the universities. I agree that there is a huge potential resource to tap into.

My work tends to involve the international recruitment side in universities. It is a matter of encouraging greater collaboration between the recruitment of international students and the work of the alumni offices of institutions, although those tend to involve different activity streams. The alumni side is very much about business development and fundraising; the international offices tend to be about recruitment and marketing. It is often hard to get those two groups to work together within institutions because they have different objectives. Our plan is to bring the two sides closer together to collaborate.

I have two things to put to Professor Archer—although I suspect that they are contradictory, in a sense. I would like you to be more specific about the Scottish Executive's role. You appreciate that we are examining not you, but how the Scottish Executive works. Keith Raffan picked up on your saying that higher education should feature more prominently. You said that you have your targets, and that it would be nice if the Executive shared those targets. Perhaps I have just not got this yet, but what specifically do you think the Executive should be doing that it is not doing now? It might be suggested that it is good to have more targets, and that that is a nice aspiration, but I would like to get to the nuts and bolts.

Let us try to follow through what would need to happen for twice as many international students to be brought into Scotland. What are the consequences of that, and what policies would need to be developed for that to be successful? We need to understand that bringing students into Scotland will raise aspirations. If some of them are encouraged to stay in Scotland, then issues around visas, the right to work and so on will need to be developed further.

Within institutions, the costs associated with providing educational opportunities for students are not insignificant. The funding that would be required for universities if they were to deliver the aspiration to have more students would need to cover the associated infrastructural, teaching and staff costs. Nothing comes for nothing; those kinds of aspiration cost.

If we want to target particular countries—we have talked about countries such as India and China—we should talk about European students and the opportunities that an expanded European Union offers. As far as the universities are concerned, European students come at the same per-head income as home students. The number of home students is presently capped by the funding councils because of the amount of money that they have. If we want to increase the number of European Union students—whether they come from the expansion countries or from the other 15 countries—we will need some opportunity of raising the budget head. That would mean a greater cost to the Scottish Executive in funding through the funding councils, which would be a policy issue. The Executive would have to decide that that was what it wanted to do. However, it is worth exploring.

If we want to play our part in the European research area—and we have spoken about the importance to Scotland of the international standard of research in its universities—the ticket will be a commitment to spending 3 per cent of GDP on research and development by 2010. That is what the European research area is all about. The Executive has been pretty silent on its aspirations for playing in that European game, which is regarded as a United Kingdom policy issue. "A Smart, Successful Scotland" says nothing at all about the European strategy. It is an important strategy, and it is on our doorstep.

I hear what you are saying and I do not mean to criticise, but much of it sounds like, "We need more resources." Is it as simple as that? Do you feel that the Executive has clear ideas and agrees with your aspirations, but just does not have the money, or is not providing the money, or is it more complex? Do you feel that the Executive is not really on your wavelength?

I do not think that there is a policy on where we want to get to in terms of the numbers and the areas in which we want to play. If we want to be part of the European research area, we have to say so. If we do, we will be on a route on which we will be encouraged to spend more on research and development, in line with the aspirations of the European research area. The consequences for the universities would be great. The framework programmes and the network programmes offer many opportunities. Of course, the network programmes are not fully funded. The universities have been working towards fully-funded research, but the European programmes do not allow for that to happen. There is a gap. If we want to play in the European area, a consequence will be that the Parliament will have to understand the nature of that gap and consider how it might be filled. We cannot say that we want to do and be all these different things unless we understand the consequences.

You say that there is no policy, but do you have any feel for why that is? Obviously, people in Universities Scotland—you, your present convener and your predecessors—speak to the Executive. Have you any feel for where the policy logjam is?

In these early days of the Parliament, the logjam has been caused by the fact that European policies have tended to be reserved. There is no natural place to express views on Europe.

Could effective discussion take place at the Scottish international forum?

I cannot comment on how effective the Scottish international forum is. I do not know.

In its submission, British Council Scotland says that it is a member of the Scottish international forum. I note too that it says that it works together with the Executive and feels that Scotland is most effectively promoted when there is that partnership. Does the Scottish international forum provide a useful voice, or is there a better way to address the issues that Gordon Jackson raised?

I have been to all the meetings of the Scottish international forum so far—I think that yesterday's meeting was the seventh. The jury is out on the forum's effectiveness and even on what its ultimate focus and purpose are. The forum has grown over its seven meetings and I think that there were 60 people around the table in the Edinburgh International Conference Centre yesterday. The Executive gave an encouraging presentation that suggested that it is moving towards an all-embracing international strategy. However, such a strategy is not yet in place, which is why I think that all the witnesses would say that our engagement with the Executive is bitty—it is good as far as it goes, but we keep asking how it fits into a bigger picture. The good news is that I can see from where an international strategy is beginning to emerge. I am not certain about the role of the Scottish international forum in the strategy, but my experience suggests that the forum is not the place to resolve the issues that Professor Archer and Mr Jackson discussed.

Where might that place be?

I cannot answer that in relation to the universities. The forum offers a valuable networking venue because it brings together individuals from the many institutions that—one way or another—represent Scotland internationally.

I work closely with the Scottish Executive Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Department and we have a good working relationship. Last autumn we linked in with Lewis Macdonald's visit to Beijing. The visit was planned to coincide with the major exhibition fairs in the city, which attract more than 40,000 students. The minister hosted a Sino-Scottish evening reception, which generated incredible publicity and was reported on the Chinese national news at 10 pm. When we work together at that level we can have a major impact.

You give a good example.

Mark Simmons says that we should attract far more overseas students and that the Executive should share that aspiration, but I have been putting an opposing view, because it has been suggested to me that the down side to that aspiration is that we end up not doing what we should be doing, which is training people for our own market. I use medicine as an example. Consultants tell me that our centres of excellence in medical training—in Aberdeen, Edinburgh or wherever—attract students from all over the world, in particular from the United Kingdom, south of the border. However, those students end up working outside Scotland, so we do not train enough people to staff our own hospitals. To put it crudely, young people in Scotland who would be happy to study medicine in a Scottish university and who have the basic qualifications cannot get a place, because our centres of excellence are so internationally oriented. Those young people move down south and do not come back to Scotland, while the people whom we train do not stay here. That leaves us with a serious skills shortage in Scotland, in particular in medicine. Historically, we trained doctors in our marvellous universities who worked in our marvellous hospitals, but now we have a problem, which has been caused in part by the huge emphasis on attracting students from other jurisdictions.

I suspect that your example from the medical field does not actually work in the way that you describe. I understand that medical schools have a very limited number of places for international students and that entry is controlled—I do not know the exact number, but I think that fewer than 5 per cent of places go to international students. The students who come to Scottish medical schools at undergraduate level are largely UK-based, although the situation is slightly different at postgraduate level.

I was classifying the rest of the UK as abroad in relation to our Scottish hospitals. I am not being a Scottish nationalist, but I think that what I mentioned is part of the problem.

At the undergraduate level, medicine has rather restricted entry for people from overseas. In almost every other discipline, the opportunity is available for international students to participate in whatever numbers an institution feels are manageable. The question in Scotland is how we retain those students against a background of demographic projection that the number of Scottish students will decline in the next 10 years.

I mentioned medicine. Is what I have suggested not a problem in any discipline? I am not particularly saying that it is. Do we have no problem of having too many international students at some levels? Someone has mentioned pharmacy to me as an example—I do not know where that idea came into my ear from. Do we have the problem at any level?

As Professor Archer said, medicine is a restricted area of activity, as are dentistry and veterinary studies. Restrictions are placed on international students entering those fields.

Most international students who come to Scotland study at postgraduate rather than undergraduate level and they tend to focus on business and management. We and most institutions are keen for diversification away from business and management. That is starting to happen, but at the moment, nearly 40 per cent of international students come for business and management courses. Universities are keen for more people from overseas to participate in engineering, science and technology, for which Scotland has a shortage of applicants and needs international students to allow those departments to survive.

Margaret Ewing asked about the countries of origin of students who study in Scotland but I do not think that we received an answer. Could a detailed breakdown of countries of origin please be forwarded to us in due course? It would also help to have information on the subjects that are studied, the universities at which students study and whether students are postgraduates or undergraduates. I would also welcome an accurate breakdown of the students' socioeconomic backgrounds.

The importance of a European strategy has been referred to and I understand the desirability of attracting more students from other European countries, including the countries that have recently joined the European Union. However, the European Union is not the world. Some Scottish universities have long-standing and strong links with some of the poorest countries in the world—especially Commonwealth countries in Africa and Asia. Do students from such countries have a fair deal in terms of an opportunity to come to Scotland?

There is a system of Commonwealth scholarships. Do they succeed in bringing students from poorer backgrounds to Scotland? Should we do more? Should the Parliament and the Executive do something to attract students from poorer countries and from poorer backgrounds—in particular, Commonwealth countries?

We manage several scholarship schemes on behalf of various clients, including the Foreign and Commonwealth Office's scholarship scheme, which has in Scotland scholars from more than 70 countries. It follows that that scheme involves a wide range of countries.

We are discussing a new scholarship scheme with the Executive, which arises from the fresh talent initiative. That scheme will be a first—it will be a Scottish Executive scholarship scheme. It is intended to trail blaze for the fresh talent initiative and to raise awareness of Scotland as an international study destination. We and the Executive are nailing down which countries we will target for the scheme. Under discussion at various stages have been the east European accession countries and education UK Scotland markets. It would help to have a quick rundown of the education UK Scotland priority markets.

Our priority markets, which were selected by the Scottish education sector, are the United States, China, India, the Gulf states—specifically the United Arab Emirates—Kenya, Russia, Mexico and Vietnam. We evaluate the matter each year, and will be working in those countries for the next three years.

Picking up Dennis Canavan's point about the Commonwealth, I wonder whether there are any plans to support scholarships from countries such as Malawi, which has very strong links with Scotland.

I do not have the details about our Commonwealth fellowship scheme in front of me, but I will send them to the committee.

Members will recall that, last year, Edinburgh hosted the 15th conference of Commonwealth education ministers. At the Executive's invitation, the British Council organised a parallel symposium for educationalists, which was a worthwhile—indeed, inspiring—exercise. I am very happy to send the committee more information about what we are doing with the Commonwealth.

That would be helpful.

Has any analysis been carried out into why overseas students come to study in Scotland? I take it that the reason has nothing to do with the weather. Has it more to do with the academic reputation of Scottish universities and colleges, their financial arrangements, the natural environment, the language or the friendliness of the people?

About five years ago, under education UK Scotland, we commissioned the Scottish Council for Research and Education to carry out that analysis. We will commission another report on the issue towards the end of this financial year.

That research clearly showed that word of mouth was the primary reason why students came to Scotland. Their families, friends or employers might have studied here, and recommended it as a study destination. As a result, another area that we are keen to promote is support for and welfare of people who have been recruited to study in Scotland. After all, we want them to feel that their stay here was a positive experience. Although the research will be undertaken again, anecdotal evidence suggests that word of mouth is still the primary reason for people coming to study here.

As part of this year's selection process, we interviewed about 150 international postgraduates about their reasons for choosing to come here and their awareness of Scotland before they arrived in the country. Roughly two thirds of the students, if not more, said that they chose the UK, not Scotland. In other words, they chose the UK name and then the institution where they could take their preferred course. Word of mouth was also a factor. I should also say that many of the people whom I interviewed between last October and January had a quite limited awareness of Scotland. The fact that these students chose the UK and not Scotland itself is something that we should consider in our promotional work.

The English language is very strong. In a competitive international market, the ease or otherwise of getting visas is a key issue for international students who are choosing between different English-language destinations.

I am very interested to find out how the Executive thinks we should promote Scotland's international image. In fact, yesterday we received a presentation on that very issue in the Scottish international forum. Some really serious research has been conducted into how a wide range of countries perceive Scotland, and I agree with its findings that we have a blank canvas to paint on in this respect. It is clear that people around the world have positive perceptions of Scotland; however, when we drill down into that, we find that in many cases those perceptions are not up to date. That said, almost none of those perceptions is negative. It will be exciting to see what comes from the Executive's work on both the international image of Scotland and the fresh talent initiative, which is closely related. There is a lot to say about the fresh talent initiative, which has the potential to be very positive, not least for the promotion of Scottish education.

One of the issues that most of us hear about frequently is that people who come to study in our country usually have qualifications from their country of origin. Do you have any difficulty with recognising such qualifications? Conversely, if people graduate here and go back to their country of origin, is there any difficulty with having Scottish qualifications recognised there?

I do not think that the issue is only about Scottish qualifications—it is a UK issue. A lot of information is shared between institutions around the UK and that allows us properly to benchmark the qualifications that are offered at the point of entry. That has not been a problem.

On exit qualifications, Scottish education is still perceived as high-quality education. The evidence from interviews of international students at my university shows that they come to Scotland—and to my university in particular—because of the perceived quality of the degree. In some areas, particularly professional areas, the opportunity for graduates to be able to work in the UK for a while before they go back to their countries is a big plus in relation to recruitment. We have many students from Singapore in areas such as the built environment and civil engineering and those students have the opportunity to work in Scotland before they go back. That work experience gives them a professional standing in their countries that they would not otherwise be able to get as easily. Our ability to bring such students to Scotland has been much enhanced by the opportunity of work experience.

In many areas, there are big questions about whether work experience can be offered and about the cost of work permits. Employers have to pick up the cost of work permits, and in some cases that is an impediment to the ability to offer employment opportunities.

On quality, your submission says:

"It is probably fair to say that Scotland only has three industries which would be considered among the best of their type in the world; financial services, the production of luxury goods … and higher education."

Industries flourish when they are earners. Does the higher education system in Scotland earn and add to the economy of Scotland?

I do not know whether the submission gives details of added value in terms of GDP multipliers; if not, we will provide that information. Work that is done on behalf of Universities Scotland by the Fraser of Allander Institute regularly updates information on earning powers. The multiplier on the spend is about 1.8. As far as the economics are concerned, we divide the figures into, first, spending on salaries, employment, fees and the things that students bring in and, second, the impact that is created when they spend those things. The multipliers are standard economic monitoring.

It is fair to say that your submission gives details of off-campus earnings, but I wonder how that compares with the cost of taking students through universities. What support is given by the British Government, or by their own governments, to students who come from countries such as India and China?

The support is variable. There are two groups of students—from one of the countries you mentioned, or any other. One group comes sponsored by the state. The other group comes privately sponsored. The privately sponsored students do not bring anything else with them. Overseas students may or may not have a UK scholarship. In fact, one of the things that is a big attractor is the availability of the number of scholarships for students to come to the UK. Sometimes students come with a scholarship from their own country, which provides for tuition fees and the cost of living. However, we are increasingly finding that, because the cost-of-living element has been underestimated, overseas students are calling on the resources of individual universities to help them out with welfare issues.

On research, which is an important part of university work, it seems that you have had a fair amount of success in attracting cash from countries outside the EU—and, indeed, within the EU—into Scottish universities.

You talked earlier about a requirement for funding at a level of 3 per cent of GDP. Do you envisage that figure coming from central Government or does part of the funding that universities require for research include the money that you attract through other sources?

There is a broad assumption in the concept of the European research area that an amount that is equivalent to about 1 per cent of GDP comes from the public sector, with 2 per cent coming from the private sector—business or industry—or whatever other route. The position in the UK is that about 1.8 per cent of GDP is spent on research and development. Within that figure, about 0.9 per cent comes from the public sector, with the remainder coming from the business sector. Scotland has about half the GDP earnings and our spend is different—we do not have the business and industry sector component that the rest of the UK has. If we are to undertake work at the same level, our dependency on the public sector is disproportionate.

Have you any ideas about how to change that? What can your British Council colleagues do to assist?

The fundamental issue that Scotland is trying to address on many fronts is that of increasing the number of businesses that can help the country to grow its GDP to at least the same rate as that of the rest of the UK, or—I would hope—to a greater level. I do not need to tell the committee about the variety of policies involved in that, but Scottish Enterprise is one of the organisations that is trying to help the process along.

On how that relates to the universities and to our ability to continue to attract students, the big research game in town at the moment is the development of the intermediary technology institutes. In a way, they are a surrogate for business research and development centres. The idea is that the ITIs can conduct medium-term research on behalf of a sector that does not have a sufficient number of businesses to be able to do its own research. The jury is out on the ITIs at the moment and we will have to wait for quite a long time before we can see whether the game has worked and whether the ITIs have helped.

I have a final, personal question. I notice that you have an engineering background. Why have engineering courses in Scottish universities lost their impact? Is there a recognition across the world that that has happened or is Scottish engineering still perceived to be a top product?

That is a tricky question. The concept of engineering has moved on from the heavy engineering with which Scotland was associated and into design. That development has not been picked up yet by communities at large. We have a job still to do to explain what new engineering is.

Certainly, engineering is tough: it requires a good background in science and mathematics. The turn-off back in school for young people who study science and mathematics is part of a story that flows through into the university area.

One of the interesting things about European expansion is that many of the accession states still have a better concept of subjects such as engineering. Their kids have a background in science and engineering that could enable some of them to come to Scotland to start a new wave of activity. However, engineering is generally perceived to be a tough area. The perception is that it is associated with manufacturing. We have not yet managed to change the public's outdated ideas.

I want to move the discussion on from engineering to science. For a long time, Scotland had a big reputation for innovation in science. Many people had high hopes that bioscience could do a lot in Scotland, both for us and for the rest of the world. It is well known that there is a climate of public hostility to some bits of bioscience, such as those to do with genetic modification. To what extent is that a problem? Conversely, if the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Parliament could lead public opinion to view that area of science as something that should be supported—that is a big "if"—could that be an advantage for research institutes, companies and universities in Scotland? Could we become known as the place to which people come to work in that field?

I think that Scotland has some of the best life-science, bioscience and bioengineering work in the UK. That is consistently underpinned by its ability to win new opportunities. The new pro-bio initiative, which is coming to Scotland against all sorts of competition from different parts of the UK, is an example of that.

The public's attitude to the support that the Parliament might be able to give to the growth opportunities is important. There will be sensitivity about whether there is public backing for the Parliament to support the initiatives that the scientists and engineers think are seriously worth growing and which have enormous growth potential in the research parks around the universities in Scotland.

In the area of life sciences and biosciences, we are playing a long game. The life cycle of projects that deliver economic benefit is probably about 10 years. It is a question of being prepared to play a long game to get the benefits. We certainly have the capabilities, but if we twitch too soon and withdraw from the game, we will lose the opportunities.

The number of international students who come to Scotland to study biological science perhaps reflects that. They represent the third largest block of overseas students; the largest blocks study business and information technology. Biological science is very important to international recruitment.

Those students are mainly postgraduates.

That is right.

I have an anecdote. The convener, Gordon Jackson and I were in Paris recently, as part of our work on the inquiry. We got the strong impression that the Irish Republic had a higher profile in Paris than Scotland had—although I can talk only about the people to whom we spoke.

Three weeks later, I went back to Paris and visited the Irish education and cultural centre, which is in a magnificent seminary building behind the Panthéon. The building has strong Irish connections—in case you cannot find it, it is on a street called Rue d'Irlande. The wonderful set-up helped me to understand why Ireland has such a high profile in the French capital.

I thought that I should be fair, so I went to the British Council building, which is near Les Invalides. It is not nearly as impressive as the Irish centre, but that might be just a one-off. When I went inside, I found that that there was no mention of Scotland; we are subsumed under the general title "British Council". The entry and reception area is rather unimpressive and very little written material is provided. Despite what is available on websites, such material should be provided. I am worried by the name "British Council". Why do we call it that instead of just saying what it is—an education and cultural centre—as every other country does? It worries me that we are subsumed under a general British title. I am not a member of the SNP, but such experiences make me more nationalist with a small n. Is my experience typical? How can we raise the profile of Scotland, because that is the point?

We have had serious discussions in the British Council about the name, but we return again and again to the fact that it is such a well-known brand name for us in 110 countries.

I am familiar with the British Council building in Paris and I agree that when one goes inside, there is no visible statement about Scotland. However, our colleagues in the British Council in France have been fantastic in supporting the Executive's year-long promotion of Scotland in France as part of the 100th anniversary of the entente cordiale. We feel that we have worked effectively with British Council France, which is one of our directorates that is very on board as far as the Scottish agenda is concerned. If you go back in about a month, I am pretty confident that you will see visible statements of the British Council's commitment to Scotland because we in British Council Scotland have just produced an attractive set of posters that is going out today to every British Council office in the world. The posters highlight areas of excellence in Scotland and signpost websites as well as information sources in our office. The poster campaign is part of our communications effort and part of mobilising the British Council global network still further to work for Scotland.

It is not just a matter of the buildings: as I went round Paris, I kept seeing the magazine "Irish Connections", and there is another Irish magazine, too. Outside Shakespeare and Company—that well-known tourist attraction and bookshop—there are piles of "Irish Connections". We do not seem to have anything similar. The Irish seem to be on the ball and we do not.

The Irish have a much smaller international network than we do.

When they are present, one knows that they are present.

Sure. To state the obvious, Ireland currently holds the presidency of the European Union. We have many conversations about international models for Scotland and the effectiveness or otherwise of Ireland in promoting itself. Again, we come back to the ways in which there is a valid comparison between the two and, as regards an international network, Ireland simply does not have the network that the British Council has for the UK and Scotland.

I will follow on from Keith Raffan's question. The title "British Council Scotland" is a bit of a mouthful. The organisation education UK Scotland is anomalous as well, given that the education system in Scotland is different from that in the rest of the UK. It is difficult to see how that sends out a clear-cut message. Virtually all the British Council's activities are in devolved areas—I presume that you deal mainly with education and culture, which are devolved responsibilities. Post-devolution, we have the British Council, which is linked to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in London, from where the funding comes, and you are built into that network—

Yes and no.

Why cannot we have a Scottish council post-devolution?

We have a core grant from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. At present, that is less than 50 per cent of the total turnover in Scotland because of the increasing buy-in from the Executive, the funding councils, our partnerships with the Scottish Arts Council, the Royal Society of Edinburgh and so on. We believe that, since devolution, the British Council has demonstrated that it delivers for Scotland—it ain't broke, so don't fix it.

I think that you mentioned Scottish networks international and education UK Scotland. Education UK Scotland works brilliantly in an international context, which might not be apparent from here. It was designed to lever off the education UK brand, which has been established incredibly successfully in many countries throughout the world—it capitalises on an existing UK brand for the benefit of Scotland.

Such successes are difficult for the committee to measure. However, from all the research of which you are aware, how does Scotland's image compare to that of other countries and, in particular, that of the rest of the UK? I know that the British Council commissioned research in Ireland—I think that it was called "Through Irish Eyes"—to find out how Scotland and the UK are perceived in Ireland. Have you done similar exercises in other countries? How does Scotland compare with the rest of the UK, given that you say that the UK brand is a great lever for Scotland?

You may have seen reference in the newspapers last week to a research exercise that the British Council conducted in the USA, in which young high achievers were interviewed in southern California and Texas. Specifically, Hispanic-Americans, Asian-Americans and African-Americans were interviewed. It is clear why those states and that section of the population were chosen. The research report, which was entitled "Pale People in the Rain", looked at the future leadership generation in the south of the USA, and its conclusions were widely reported in the press, because on one level they were quite funny.

The report revealed that among the young people who were interviewed there were very low levels of knowledge and awareness of the UK. Less than 1 per cent of those who were questioned wanted to come to Scotland and not a single one could identify a recent UK scientific achievement. However, I feel—and I felt this yesterday at the Scottish international forum when we were looking at the international image of Scotland—that that is a huge opportunity. That level of ignorance and the lack of positive—or negative—perceptions actually mean that clearly there is a lot to play for in the marketplace in America.

Your argument that Scotland has a positive image around the world and that we have to lever off the UK brand—despite the fact that, post-devolution, the British Council's responsibilities are in devolved areas—was interesting.

We take a pragmatic view. We lever off the UK brand when there is advantage for Scotland in so doing, and we play the Scottish card when it works. Since devolution, I and many British Council colleagues in many countries have been struck by the real level of interest and the potential level of interest in Scotland, which is reflected in visitor numbers. It is a problem and a pleasure that is shared between the committee, the Parliament, the Executive and the British Council in Scotland. One of the things that makes our work so enjoyable is the number of people who are interested in coming to Scotland to find out what is really going on.

The British Council briefing lists four projects in which the council has been involved to promote Scotland internationally. It refers to Scotland in Sweden in 2002, the Venice biennale in 2003 and the 100th anniversary of the entente cordiale this year, and there is the inevitable reference to tartan day, whatever we might think of it. Would it be asking too much for the council to send to the committee a comprehensive list of all the projects in which it has been involved since the Scottish Parliament was set up? I am thinking of projects that could be described as promoting Scotland abroad, whether they were big events, such as those to which you referred, or small cultural groups that went overseas on tour with some assistance—financial or otherwise—from the British Council.

I will do my best. You are asking quite a lot, because there has been so much activity in so many different fields. I have with me some information that I will leave with the clerk on those specific promotions in New York, Stockholm and France. I will put my mind to following up your question. The list will not be comprehensive, simply because there has been so much activity every month, let alone since devolution. However, I am certainly happy to add to the examples that I gave in the written submission.

You asked for comprehensive information and statistics. Our annual UK and Scotland education report comes out next week, and all members will receive a copy. As an example, my small team in the British Council has involved more than 50 education institutions in Scotland in international activity consisting of both outward missions overseas and inward missions to Scotland. The activities that we undertake are comprehensive.

I was going to bring this part of the meeting to a close, but your answers have sparked a quick question from Keith Raffan.

Can we hear more from you? I make that request as an individual member of the Scottish Parliament, because I had much more to do with the British Council as a member at Westminster than I do here. You are hiding your light under a bushel, so perhaps it could be made more visible. Lots of things are happening but, for example, the Royal Society of Edinburgh's conference on hepatitis got no coverage in the media at all. You would think we were trying to hide our international scientific and medical excellence. We need to broadcast those things and we need to know what you are up to.

Thank you. I could have talked for the whole hour about what we are doing in partnership with the Royal Society of Edinburgh alone to showcase the international excellence of science in Scotland, because it is brilliant. I will take you up on your request. We are going to be neighbours from October onwards. One practical thing I would like to do is invite the committee to visit us in the Tun, so that we can tell you as much as you would like to hear about our work.

I know that the committee echoes Keith Raffan's sentiments and welcomes your offer. We look forward to being neighbours at Holyrood—we will try not to be too noisy. We will keep our eye on you, as the themes that we have discussed will continue for years to come. Thank you for coming along to the committee today, for giving us your time and for your succinct and helpful written submission, which helped us to prepare questions.

Meeting suspended.

On resuming—