Finance Committee, 07 Dec 1999

Meeting date: Tuesday, December 7, 1999

Official Report 216KB pdf

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Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill

Before I open up the meeting to discussion on the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, I have to tell the committee that there is an error in paragraph 405 on page 56 of the explanatory notes for the bill. The pound signs are misprints and the figures refer to the number of cases, not the costs.

Which paragraph?

Paragraph 405 on page 56. The figures in the list beginning

"Registration of continuing and welfare powers of attorney"

have pound signs attached to them, when in fact they refer to the estimated annual number of cases for each category.

The Justice and Home Affairs Committee has commented on the financial memorandum. It said:

"The Bill gives the Mental Welfare Commission additional functions, and the Executive has provided an estimate of the resulting additional costs (paragraph 420 of the Financial Memorandum). We were surprised to learn, however, that the Commission had not been consulted on what those costs might be . . . That strikes us as a failure in the consultation process."

Does any member wish to comment on this bill?

The word "estimated" appears in paragraph after paragraph of the financial memorandum. Has the committee been given any indication of the firmness of the financial prediction?

No. The only information that we have is contained within the explanatory notes and the financial memorandum. Although it is reasonable to give estimates, we have to decide whether those estimates are themselves reasonable, which, given our lack of specific knowledge of the issues, is not always easy.

On the legal aid aspect of the bill, has the relevant authority responded in the consultation about the likely costs of the bill?

I do not know, although I would be surprised if that had not happened.

My question simply follows up the comment from the Justice and Home Affairs Committee.

We can certainly follow up the matter. However, I cannot give an answer at the moment.

Andrew, you are looking expectantly.

I am just waiting for you.

Are there any further comments?

The financial memorandum refers several times to costs to local authorities. It recognises that there will be an extra major cost to local government and says that future funding will be adjusted to take account of that. I have concerns about that, because local government is constantly being loaded down with extra statutory duties without being given the extra finance to pay for them. Such extra funding could well disappear into the ether in future local government settlements.

I will note that point.

Following Ken Macintosh's point on local government, I am concerned about the costs to the voluntary sector. The bill's provisions seem fine if organisations have a particular contract. The financial memorandum says that the costs will be recoverable, but many of the activities have been undertaken not by contract but on demand. Does that mean that the bill applies only to those voluntary sector organisations that are involved in contracted operations and that, if those organisations do anything voluntarily, they will have no opportunity to recover costs?

I note your point about the costs being recoverable; those costs may not only be

"the contract price for the service"

as the financial memorandum states. The voluntary sector may not necessarily be fully able to recover costs. On occasion, certain services may not be required if there are additional costs. As someone with an interest in the voluntary sector, I would also be concerned about that.

We can comment only on the specific costs and not on the principles behind the bill that might give rise to those costs. The committee has to decide whether the estimated costs are reasonable.

I suppose that that is the case.

Notwithstanding various members' comments, are we prepared to accept that the estimated costs are reasonable?

Members indicated agreement.