Procedures Committee, 29 Oct 2002

Meeting date: Tuesday, October 29, 2002

Official Report 138KB pdf

---

Parliamentary Questions

Hugh Flinn joins us for item 4, which is consideration of a report on various possible changes to standing orders in relation to parliamentary questions. This item arises from our meeting with the Minister for Parliamentary Business on 11 June and her subsequent letter of 10 July.

This is, in essence, a tidying-up paper dealing with various issues, most of which arise from the minister's attendance at the committee on 11 June. Proposed changes to standing orders are before members for consideration, and I shall summarise the paper briefly.

Paragraphs 2 to 9 deal with the period for answer to parliamentary questions. They highlight the difficulties that the current 14-day rule causes when public holidays occur during the 14 days for answer. They recommend that standing orders be changed so that the period for answer will normally be 10 days when the office of the clerk is open, rather than 14 normal days. For recess questions, the period will be 20 days when the office of the clerk is open, rather than 28 days. I hope that that change will address the various logistical difficulties that the current rule poses for the Executive and for the chamber desk, but I hope also that it does so without detriment to members in terms of the period for answer.

Paragraphs 10 to 21 address various issues relating to recess questions. We note that the Executive is not now seeking any moratorium period during recesses, nor is it seeking to extend the 28 days to 35 days. We have considered two issues concerning when the 28-day period when the office of the clerk is open should apply. It is really for members to take a decision on those two issues, which are addressed in paragraphs 17 and 20.

Paragraphs 22 to 25 seek to address an anomaly in standing orders on the position of junior ministers, and recommend a change so that it is explicit that junior ministers can answer written questions as well as oral questions.

The recommendations are summarised in paragraph 26.

We are also joined for the discussion by Andrew McNaughton from the Scottish Executive parliamentary liaison unit.

We welcome the recommendations and thank the committee for its consideration of them. As the convener knows, the Minister for Parliamentary Business, Patricia Ferguson, has commented on some of the recommendations in her letter of 10 July. I commend the recommendations to the committee.

We will deal with the three sets of proposals in turn.

The points that are made in paragraphs 1 to 9 of the paper reflect our discussion in June. The aim is to have questions answered within 10 working days, rather than within 14 days. I want to ask about the proposed insertion into standing orders of the term "counting days" and the offer of a definition of that term. The basis for that recommendation appears to be that it is felt that the term "working days" is not very accurate. Might it have been possible to use the term "working days" and to provide a definition of the term for the purposes of this rule? Would that have conflicted with the way in which the term "working days" is used in other contexts, thereby leading to confusion?

We considered that option, but it would have complicated the position. The working days of the Parliament and the working days of the Executive are not identical. No doubt a formulation could have been worked out, but it is likely that the wording would have been very complicated. We also considered wording based on the notion of days when the office of the clerk is open, but that led to complicated formulations in standing orders. The term "counting days" that is proposed for insertion in standing orders as rule 13.5.2A is a device designed to ensure that the substantive standing order is as simple as possible.

So counting days are neither the working days of the Executive nor the working days of the Parliament.

They are more akin to the working days of the Parliament—they relate to

"days when the Office of the Clerk is open."

Are counting days the working days of the Parliament?

The Parliamentary Bureau can recommend that the office of the clerk should not be open on days that are not public holidays or privilege holidays for parliamentary staff. It often does so for the days between Christmas and new year. I do not think that counting days and the working days of the Parliament are exactly the same.

This is broadening the issue a little, but would it be possible for the first sentence of standing order 13.5.2 to read, "The answer to a written question shall be lodged with the Clerk and shall answer the question"?

That would be an interesting additional point to pursue, but it is not relevant to the specific issue of timing. I am sure that we will have ample opportunity in another context to discuss the issue that Donald Gorrie has raised.

Donald Gorrie makes a very interesting point, but perhaps we should seek answers to oral questions before dealing with written questions.

I support what Hugh Flinn said about the importance of referring in standing orders to

"days when the Office of the Clerk is open."

We know that many MSPs and their staff work on public holidays. It is important to define when the official business of motions and questions can be lodged. We should use the term "counting days" and define that exactly. In Edinburgh, in particular, there are a number of public holidays in May and June. Some of the main concerns relate to those.

I want to address the issue of the recess. The committee has worked with the Executive to reach an accommodation, taking into account the working of the chamber office. I am very pleased that the Executive is no longer seeking a moratorium on written questions during part of the recess or an extension of the deadline for answers to recess questions. We are left with the narrow issue of what happens at the end of the recess.

At the end of the summer recess, I had a very interesting experience. A helpful clerk pointed out to me that if I delayed lodging a question for two days it would be answered more quickly than if I lodged it during the recess. That is not common sense. I am reluctant for the last week of the recess to be covered by the rules for answering written questions that apply during the summer. We need to have a transition period, whereby the same rules would apply to the lodging of questions in the last week of the recess as would apply after the recess. I do not support the Executive's move to treat the last week of the recess in the same way as the rest of the summer, because that would produce the bizarre situation with which I was faced. I was told that if I hung on for two days, I would get a reply more quickly. That is not appropriate.

The Executive and the committee have worked together constructively on improving responses to members and to staff. I am interested in the speed of response. I note that we have recently received notification on another of the issues that we are pursuing in relation to parliamentary questions—the cost of answering questions. I understand that Colin Boyd's office has replied that Colin Boyd cannot answer questions because of disproportionate cost.

I am concerned that the good will that we have shown in co-operating with the Executive on one issue is perhaps being undermined by the lack of response and the treatment by one of the Executive's departments of another issue that we are considering. I would prefer to operate on the basis of good will and co-operation, regardless of the issue that is raised. The Executive has raised the cost issue. We have responded promptly on an issue that is in the Executive's interests. I am slightly concerned that it is taking longer for some matters to come to light in relation to an issue that is not in the Executive's interests. The Executive seems to be operating a system without the agreement of the committee.

That is my caveat. The Executive may or may not wish to respond to that point, because that is a point for the committee. I am willing to move towards the Executive to a great extent, but we must be aware that we must operate on the basis of good will with the Executive on such matters.

The point has been made, but it is not relevant to the paper. I do not expect Hugh Flinn or Andrew McNaughton to be able to answer on advisory cost limits. However, you are free to add anything that might be pertinent in your answer to the earlier points.

In relation to Fiona Hyslop's point about not extending the deadline into the last week of the recess period, there will probably always be some anomalies in the operation of the process. As the Minister for Parliamentary Business has set out, our concern is that we might end up in a situation in which we were not able to answer questions as timeously as we would hope, which would be counterproductive. We all want questions to be answered timeously.

As the minister noted in her letter of 10 July, the Executive's holidays do not necessarily follow the Parliament's recess dates. When staff come and go, there will be other urgent business to pick up. There is a benefit in having a consistent approach. The 28-day period should apply to the whole or part of a recess. That is our line. In our opinion, it would be beneficial to allow a 28-day period for the answering of questions throughout the recess. However, it is for the committee to decide what it wants to do about the issue.

I never cease to be impressed by the ability of my colleague Fiona Hyslop to talk about good will and co-operation with the Executive, while taking a direct pop at the Executive. I agree that we can and should seek to maximise co-operation between the Executive and the Parliament. I have made that point several times. In particular, I have highlighted the importance of working together to make best use of the resources that are available to the Executive and the Parliament.

The table in paragraph 13 of annexe B is striking in revealing the inexorable rise in the number of parliamentary questions that are being lodged. I am aware that the figures in the table relate only to the recess period. The figure rose from 783 in 1999 to more than 1,500 in 2002. I know that there are similar trends throughout the rest of the year. I appreciate the fact that the committee has carried out a separate piece of work on issues around the volume and processing of parliamentary questions, which bears some relationship to the wider work that we have been doing on the CSG inquiry.

Senior representatives from the Executive and the Parliament are here today. I wonder whether this question has thrown up any further thoughts or observations on their part on what the steady increase in the number of questions has meant in resource terms. I am keen to know whether the work that we have been doing has generated further thoughts about what might be done to address these matters, because the increase in the number of questions is a matter of shared concern to the Parliament. I say that without seeking to limit or constrain an important part of the parliamentary process. I am interested in how we can manage it more effectively.

The increase in the number of questions that were asked during the recess, particularly this year, has resource implications for parliamentary staff. The recess is usually when staff take leave so there are normally fewer clerks available to handle all the questions. There was very little difference between the number of questions that we received in this year's recess and the number of questions that we receive in a non-recess period. To talk about the reasons for that and to say whether we could consider additional areas would draw me too far into speculation.

We acknowledge that MSPs have the right to ask questions and to take responsibility for the questions that they ask. The increase in parliamentary questions since 1999 has resource implications, but we are improving our performance in coping with questions and responding to them in good time. That is in part because of the co-operation that we have with the Procedures Committee and the changes that have been agreed. We hope that that will continue. Some of the changes that have been proposed will lead us towards better performance. We see ourselves working in harmony with the Parliament.

I am grateful to Andrew McNaughton and Hugh Flinn for their comments. We will continue to consider the increase in the volume of parliamentary questions in relation to the other pieces of work in which we are involved.

We must be clear about what action we can take. Susan Deacon has raised relevant concerns about the increase in the volume of questions. However, the point that the Scottish Executive representative made is that MSPs have the right to ask questions. I appreciate that Susan Deacon and others have concerns, but what action can we take, apart from preventing duplicate questions from being submitted? I know that similar questions have been submitted on a number of occasions. The process of asking written and oral questions is helpful in that it creates a public record of information. That method is particularly helpful to MSPs.

I welcome the new approach to dealing with the time scales. I have decided not to submit written questions on a number of occasions because of the time scales that are involved in getting responses. I recall submitting a number of questions that were answered months later. They could have been answered in a shorter time scale. The answer might have been relevant to a constituent.

I know that Susan Deacon is not suggesting that we prevent MSPs from asking questions. We could continue to investigate the increasing number of questions and produce many documents like the one before us, but we will never solve the issue; it is a matter for members. We could compare ourselves with Westminster, which I know we have done in previous papers.

I have a question and a suggestion. Do the statistics that we receive on the Executive's speed of response within certain deadlines include holding responses?

My suggestion is about the small issue on which we have to take a decision, which is the last week of the recess. It occurred to me that if the last week of the recess had a 21-day deadline or a 15-counting-days deadline, it would mean that if the Executive received a question in the last week of the recess, in effect it would have the same amount of time as it would have had had the MSP waited until the first day back. In fact, the Executive would have a longer period, but the member would not be put at a disadvantage if they did not wait until the first week back after the recess. The last week would be a transition week, which would give the best of both worlds. I say that in the spirit of co-operation. Why cannot the system for the last week of recess operate on a 15-counting-day basis, which is midway between the summer deadline and full operation?

My question was on the statistics that we get on the speed of response, and picks up Paul Martin's point. What percentage of responses are holding replies?

I cannot comment on the statistics on holding replies and so forth, because I do not have the figures to hand. Hugh Flinn may be able to respond. I am not so quick-witted as to be able to follow your calculations on the counting days, but it sounds as though it is a compromise that may be worth considering. Rather than having a complete cut-off and going back to 10 days, you are proposing a 15-day period.

Yes, for the last week.

That is better than nothing, and it is better than where we are at. It is a compromise that we would want to consider.

It is not a proposal that is before us today, of course, and it would be inappropriate to put the suggestion through the committee without members having examined it and its implications and without having collected views from the various participants in the process. We can leave the proposal hanging on the wall as something that we might come to in the light of our experience of any changes that we agree to today.

At the outset, I aimed to discuss these matters in groupings, which worked only partly. One issue has not been addressed, and that is clarification on the applicability of junior ministers answering questions. Before we proceed to the recommendations, I invite members to comment on the matter.

Junior ministers already answer questions.

Yes. The changes are recommended simply to make it absolutely clear that the standing orders permit us to operate in the way that we operate. The change seeks to remove the potential for someone to misunderstand what is done, why it is done, and what is allowable.

The change is helpful, because if one wants to pursue an issue—perhaps by writing or contacting the minister rather than via written questions—it is helpful to have a steer on which junior minister is dealing with it, if it is not the minister.

We have a set of recommendations on changes to standing orders, which we are required to agree to or not agree to. I will take them separately, as they may raise different issues.

The first proposal follows the recommendation in paragraph 9 to amend standing order 13.5, and change 14 days to 10 days and include a definition of counting days. Do we agree to that recommendation?

Members indicated agreement.

The next point is not a recommended change, but a request simply to note that we do not recommend a change to the 28-day deadline. Do members agree that the deadline should be retained?

Members indicated agreement.

We are asked to decide whether to amend standing order 13.5.2, as set out in paragraph 17. The suggestion will mean an improvement in the answering of questions within the deadlines. However, the improvement will come only through extending the deadlines. There is a balancing factor and it is up to the committee whether to accept the recommendation. Do members agree to the recommendation in paragraph 26.3?

Members indicated agreement.

The committee is also asked to take a view on the issues that are raised in paragraphs 19 and 20 about whether we should have a 14-day or a 28-day deadline for answers to questions that are lodged in the final week of recess. We had an interesting discussion on that issue.

Does the committee operate on the basis that members cannot make a suggestion for a compromise during the meeting? Do we simply have to vote yea or nay on the recommendations that are before us?

When we have a paper that analyses the reasons why something should be changed and which contains a proposal, it is reasonable to take a view on that proposal. If the committee wishes to consider a 15-counting-day alternative, that is perfectly reasonable, but it would also be reasonable for us to circulate that proposal. Andrew McNaughton is here to speak for the minister, but neither the minister nor her department, nor other people who are involved, have been consulted on the implications of a 15-counting-day deadline. It would be appropriate for such a suggestion to be raised later, when people have had time to consider the implications.

Andrew McNaughton's immediate reaction to the proposal was that something is better than nothing, but that was an off-the-cuff remark. I do not suggest that Fiona Hyslop is trying to bounce a proposal through, but the committee has never bounced through changes to standing orders; we always try to consult fully. The paper asks whether we want to make a change from 10 counting days to 20 counting days. If we do not, we can discuss subsequently whether 15 counting days is acceptable. That is a reasonable way in which to proceed.

On that basis, I propose that we have a 14-day deadline for questions that are lodged in the final week of the recess.

That is essentially the status quo.

No. The status quo would be a 28-day deadline.

Okay. Fiona Hyslop proposes a change to standing orders. Are there any other views? The matter is complicated.

Is not it possible to continue—if that is the correct terminology—the issue and to obtain a further report on the 15-day option, along the sensible lines that you suggest?

That is a perfectly competent amendment to the proposal.

I support Donald Gorrie's suggestion.

What we are saying is that we would like to consider the issue again. We would like to gather views on Fiona Hyslop's timing suggestion. We will consider that item separately, perhaps at the next meeting if it is possible to get further thoughts quickly enough. If not, we will consider the matter as soon as possible.

Members should simply note paragraph 26.5. Paragraph 26.6 recommends that we accept the change to legitimise junior ministers. Do members agree to that change?

Members indicated agreement.

Were junior ministers not legitimate before?

The recommendation refers only to their role in answering questions.