Glasgow Courts (Visit)
We move on to item 3 on our agenda. Michael Matheson has not yet arrived; he was one of the two members who visited the Glasgow Bar Association. The only other item on the agenda is fairly brief, so I would like to take item 3 now. Pauline, would you like to report to the committee on your visit to the courts in Glasgow?
It was useful and interesting to see what is, I think, the country's biggest sheriff court. It was all new to me; I had not seen such a court in operation before. I arrived a bit late, so I missed one of the courts—the intermediate diet court, I think—but I caught up with it later in the afternoon.
The court is busy and it is possible to see how justice begins to break down if the administration does not function properly. For example, we visited the remand court; in one instance, the papers from the Crown Office were not available and the case had to be abandoned until the afternoon. The Bar Association told us later about the problems that such things can cause, especially for the defence. It also got in its bit about fixed fees. Problems can be caused for solicitors if they have planned to be in court on a particular day and then, through no fault of theirs, papers are lost and they have to reschedule everything.
We also visited the custody court. I arrived late; but although it was due to start at 2 o'clock, it did not start until 2.35 pm, so I did not really miss anything. It was interesting to see the speed at which everything works given that so many cases have to be dealt with. At this time of year, it is notable how many witnesses and people simply do not turn up. Warrants then have to be issued for their apprehension.
I eventually got to the intermediate diet court, but Michael Matheson may be able to tell you more about it, because he sat in for longer. In Glasgow there is a particular problem with that court: it is the one that deals with pleas and so on. We were told that there is less scope for that, because not all the information that should be available is available. For example, police reports are not made available at the intermediate diet, so the defence, in particular, does not get the opportunity to see the information. If a fiscal is not available and someone wants to make a plea, the whole thing begins to fall down.
Later, in a conference room, we discussed some of the concerns of the Bar Association. It has strong views on legal aid, for example, and hopes to be called to the Parliament to give evidence. I know that we will talk about that later.
The visit was useful, but I felt that it lacked focus. I would have liked to come away with three or four big changes that the Bar Association wanted, but I would be happy to go back. Three quarters of a day was probably not enough to take everything in. The three clerks were also there; they may want to add something.
I have been in sheriff courts often, so what Pauline says is not strange to me. I was not a criminal practitioner, but I saw the criminal courts in practice when I was there doing simple pleas.
Is it your view that, as emerged from the evidence that we took from the Executive, the procurator fiscal service is under-resourced and that there are simply not enough fiscals to handle court work? Did you find that there were vast piles of papers on various cases at the intermediate diet? Did you go to the pleading?
It was difficult to see that in action in that snapshot, but it was clear that, in Glasgow, the lack of procurators fiscal is a problem. I did not know that retired fiscals were coming in part time, but I am told that the courts are making more use of such people.
Why were the custody disposals late? Had the sheriff been doing something else? You said that the session did not start until 2.35 pm. Was there a shortage of sheriffs?
We were not given a reason for the delay, although we have heard that there have been problems when courts have been merged or nobody has been available. There were certainly lots of people running about trying to find courts to have cases heard in—there was undoubtedly a bit of chaos.
We were not given a specific reason why the court started late. However, as Alison Taylor will tell you, most of the courts that we went to started on time because we were there. It was a bit like the Queen's visit in that sense, so we may not have seen things at their peak. The Glasgow Bar Association was certainly clear that there were some problems connected with trials not starting on time and we were told that the working day of sheriffs needed to be looked at.
Do you have any comments, Gordon?
I was not there.
I know that you were not there, but I thought that you might have some comments to offer from your own experience.
I have another question, which relates to the letter from the sheriff principal.
I was going to mention that. We have had an invitation from the sheriff principal to visit the courts again to see things from the other side, as it were. If members feel that that would be useful, we could arrange such a visit. Would members like to do that?
Members indicated agreement.
Those members who would like to visit the courts should give their names to the clerks after the meeting. As Michael Matheson has not arrived, we will have to go on to item 4 on the agenda.