Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Meeting date: Thursday, May 23, 2013

Official Report 420KB pdf

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Subordinate Legislation

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Public Services Reform (Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland etc) Order 2013 [Draft]

Item 2 is to take evidence on the draft Public Services Reform (Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland etc) Order 2013. We have with us the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth, John Swinney, and his officials Sam Anwar, team leader, public bodies unit; and Stuart Foubister, divisional solicitor, directorate for legal services. I welcome the cabinet secretary and his officials to the meeting, and I invite him to make an opening statement.

The draft order, if approved, will, from 1 July 2013, establish a commissioner for ethical standards in public life in Scotland. The single commissioner will replace the Commission for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland and its two members: the Public Standards Commissioner for Scotland and the Public Appointments Commissioner for Scotland. The Commission for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland was established by the Scottish Parliamentary Commissions and Commissioners etc Act 2010. The commission is a Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body-supported body whose functions include the investigation of complaints about members of the Scottish Parliament, councillors and members of public bodies, and the regulation of public appointments.

In January 2012, the Presiding Officer, on behalf of the SPCB, requested that Scottish ministers bring forward an order to restructure the Commission for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland and to merge the roles of Public Standards Commissioner for Scotland and Public Appointments Commissioner for Scotland. That is the purpose of the order that is before the committee today.

The Public Standards Commissioner for Scotland and the Public Appointments Commissioner for Scotland both operate within a statutory framework that promotes ethical standards in public life in Scotland. There is considerable synergy between the commissioners’ functions. Their respective functions in relation to the enforcement of codes of conduct and codes of practice are similar, as are their functions in relation to scrutiny and compliance. The commission staff who assist the commissioners to perform their respective functions also work closely together. Bringing the functions together under a single commissioner will increase the opportunity for efficiency and economy of scale; it would also offer the prospect of a more effective public service, with a single access point for the public.

The new commissioner will be expected to perform the functions of that office without any detriment to levels or standards of service. In fact, the current Public Standards Commissioner for Scotland, in his capacity as acting Public Appointments Commissioner for Scotland, has been performing the role of the new commissioner since June 2012, with the same support staff and with no diminution of levels or standards of service.

The draft order was laid in Parliament and went out to public consultation between 18 January 2013 and 29 March 2013. An analysis report of responses has been published and is available on the Scottish Government website. Responses to the proposal for a single commissioner have been positive. We have taken on board the point raised by the Commission for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland and have amended the order to maintain the present position relative to which statements are absolutely privileged for the purposes of the law of defamation. Two organisations commented on the freedom of information arrangements for the new body. They felt that the new authority should be designated as a Scottish public authority for the purposes of freedom of information. We agree in principle with that proposal but feel that it needs to be discussed further with the bodies concerned.

I welcome the opportunity to answer questions from the committee.

As the cabinet secretary has said, members have a copy of the consultation responses document. Do members have questions for the cabinet secretary or his officials?

What are the current costs of the commissioner and what savings would there be?

Under the existing arrangements, the current costs are £64,000 for the office-holders involved, and we expect there to be net savings of up to £44,000 per annum as a consequence of the introduction of the order.

What is the current cost of the whole department, on average, per annum?

I do not have a total cost for the whole function to hand, but I can supply that information to the committee.

Would I be wrong in saying that it is £0.5 million?

It may be of that order, but those are Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body costs. Although the Government underpins and provides for the SPCB functions, they are not budgets that I control or manage, so I would have to provide the necessary information through the SPCB to assist in answering that question.

How many complaints did the commissioners investigate last year?

The latest data available on complaints about councillors and members of public bodies is for 2011-12, when the total number of cases was 185. Sixteen complaints about members of the Scottish Parliament were investigated in 2011-12. The number of complaints made against councillors and members of public bodies has been falling. In 2009-10, the number was 200, and it has fallen to 185 in 2011-12. The number of complaints about members of the Scottish Parliament has also fallen, from 37 in 2009-10 to 16 in 2011-12.

The Public Standards Commissioner for Scotland investigates all those complaints, and considers whether any complaint requires reference to another body. Complaints about councillors and public bodies go to the Commission for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland, and complaints about members of the Scottish Parliament follow a different route.

Can you supply the committee with the total cost of the department?

We will certainly do that.

I have just one point to pick up with you, cabinet secretary. A point that was made in the responses to the consultation was that the new authority should be designated as a Scottish public authority for the purposes of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. You have said that you agree with that proposal but feel that it should be carried out under FOI legislation in the future rather than as part of the order. Could you explain your reasoning for that?

I will ask Stuart Foubister to do that, because I suspect that the answer will refer to what is the most appropriate instrument to be amended.

The order maintains the status quo on freedom of information, which is that the public appointments function is subject to FOI, whereas the standards work is not. In paragraph 10 of schedule 2 to the order, the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002 is amended to maintain the status quo. To extend coverage to the standards work is obviously a change and a step further, but we have the power to do that by order under the FOI act. We thought that we would examine it a bit further and have further consultation with the Scottish Information Commissioner, and if the decision is still to make that extension, we will do it through the FOI order.

Do you have any idea of when you might look at that again?

It is not necessarily a long process, so perhaps we will do so after recess.

Thank you.

We now move to item 3, which is for the cabinet secretary to move motion S4M-06606.

Motion moved,

That the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee recommends that the Public Services Reform (Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland etc.) Order 2013 [draft] be approved.—[John Swinney.]

Motion agreed to.

The committee will be asked to produce a short report outlining our consideration of the order. I would be happy if members would agree in due course that I could sign off that report.

I suspend the meeting for a couple minutes to allow for the changeover of witnesses.

09:27 Meeting suspended.

09:29 On resuming—