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Chamber and committees

Public Petitions Committee, 06 Nov 2001

Meeting date: Tuesday, November 6, 2001


Contents


Current Petitions


Employment of Teachers (Religious Discrimination) (PE269)

The Convener:

The next item on the agenda is current petitions. We have to consider the lack of responses to two petitions. The first is PE269, which was submitted by Mr James Nixon, on the Education (Scotland) Act 1980. Members will remember that he believes that the act gives local authorities a right to discriminate against Scottish primary school teachers on the ground of their religious beliefs and practices, because a Catholic certificate is needed to teach in Catholic schools.

At our meeting on 26 September 2000, we agreed to copy the petition to the then Minister for Children and Education, requesting his comments on the requirement for teachers to hold certificates of approval before they can teach in denominational schools, and the Executive's views on the compliance of that practice and the relevant sections of the Education (Scotland) Act 1980 with the European convention on human rights. A letter was issued to the minister on 10 October 2000, since when the clerks have pursued the Executive for a response. Copies of the latest response from the Executive, dated 24 September, have been distributed to members. The response informs the clerk that the Executive is not yet in a position to respond, due to the need to give careful consideration to the issue, in particular with reference to domestic and European legislation.

Although the issues in the petition are complex and no doubt require careful consideration by the Executive, a response has now been outstanding for more than a year, despite regular formal and informal reminders to the Executive. It is suggested that I write to the Minister for Education, Europe and External Affairs on behalf of the committee, highlighting our concern about the unacceptable delay in the Executive's response and requesting that, if a full response is not available or possible at this stage, the Executive at least provide a full holding response, detailing the issues that it is investigating and the specific reasons for the delay.

Helen Eadie:

Last night, in preparation for the visit from members of the European Parliament Petitions Committee, I read a lot about how that committee works and the kinds of cases that it has helped to resolve. I have been a lifelong supporter of the work of the European Community and the European Parliament, and I wonder whether we should write to Mr James Nixon and suggest that he might explore going to the European Parliament Petitions Committee, as the petition raises an issue that pertains to Europe.

We could seek information on that point. If he is eligible to submit a petition to the European Parliament, we can advise him of his rights.

Phil Gallie:

I go along with the recommendation, but I add a plea on behalf of the Minister for Education, Europe and External Affairs. We should go gently on him, simply because he was not one of those members of Parliament who voted to incorporate the ECHR or who introduced a host of equal opportunities legislation that, when one analyses it, could well act against the interests of the public. I am sure that the minister, in taking his time to reply to the petition, is tied up in all that well-intentioned legislation, which could turn many of our long-standing commonsense practices on their heads.

The Convener:

I fully accept that the implications behind the petition could be momentous for Scottish education as it has been provided throughout the 20th century and is being provided in the 21st century. Nonetheless, although the minister is responsible for responding to the petition, he has not done so in any meaningful way. I should now write on behalf of the committee, insisting that if he cannot give a final response he should at least give a detailed response on the work that has been done on the petition since September 2000. The petitioner has a right to receive a response.

Do we know whether the practice to which the petition refers is widespread? I know that my daughter-in-law Margaret Ewing taught in a Catholic school very happily for many years without being a Catholic.

The Convener:

I certainly taught in a Catholic school before I became an MSP, but I had a Catholic qualification at the time. Non-Catholics teach in Catholic schools, but there is an argument that their promotion could be frustrated. That is why there may be ECHR implications.

The Executive is in a tough position; I am not pretending that it is not. However, it should respond to petitioners. Tough petitions must be answered, just as easy ones are.

I support the recommendation. We should also give the petitioner a copy of the Official Report of the discussion on the petition.

We can do that. Is the course of action that I suggested agreed to?

Members indicated agreement.


Unborn Children (Recognition in Law) (PE382)

The Convener:

The final petition, PE382, is from Mr Thomas Howe, and seeks legal recognition for the rights of the unborn child. We agreed at our meeting on 2 October that the Executive should be asked to comment on the petition and to provide clarification of the reserved provisions and details of its interest in the application of damages law. We have received a memorandum from the Executive that sets out in detail what it sees as the main points that arise from PE382.

The law that relates to the unborn child is not reserved, but it is closely bound up with other reserved matters, such as abortion. Law governing reserved matters that concern abortion, embryology, surrogacy and genetics could be relevant if provisions were made in relation to unborn children.

Petition PE382 relates only to civil law, but where there is a criminal offence, such as an assault, it is possible for any effect on an unborn child to be regarded as an aggravation of the crime. Consequences would be taken into account in sentencing. No action for damages is possible while a child remains unborn, but a claim can be made when a child is born alive.

The Executive acknowledges the depth of feeling that surrounds the issue but points out the complexity of the law in this area. Any change to legislation would require a thorough review of relevant law. At this stage the Executive has no plans for such a review. Given the complexity of the law that surrounds the petition and the Executive's clarification of its position in relation to the petition, it is suggested that the committee should pass the Executive's response to the petitioner and take no further action.

Dorothy-Grace Elder:

The reply that the law is complex could be applied to anything. The issue should not be brushed off like that. Abortion law can be separated from what the petitioner intends. He wants a clear form of retribution or apology for the death of an unborn child, starting with his own case, which involves the loss of his son.

The law is outdated in its definition of a child being born alive. If a newborn child takes just one breath, it is deemed to be born alive and there can be a case. Moreover, the expression "full term" has little meaning nowadays, given that children are being born at 20 or 21 weeks. The law on this issue is outdated. Without getting into the abortion wrangle, I do not see why there should not be proper penalties for the killing of an unborn child in circumstances such as a road crash, to which the petition refers. Sometimes in those circumstances there is only 10 minutes difference between the child being born or dying in the womb. I do not accept the Executive's reply that the matter is too complex and that we should forget it.

The situation is difficult because there might be implications for the law on abortion if an unborn child that is killed in a car crash is allowed legal rights.

Dorothy-Grace Elder:

I still think that it is possible to separate the issue of abortion from that to which the petition refers. Abortion is an agreed act. It is not, unless done illicitly, a criminal offence. The petitioner's case is entirely different, because here the unborn child has no rights at all. A mother could be fully nine months pregnant when her unborn child is killed. Is that child worth nothing? I do not think so. The petitioner has raised a major moral and legal point.

Helen Eadie:

Should we consider sending the matter to Westminster? I accept that some of it relates to civil law, but it seems to be primarily a reserved matter, given the legal complexities about the unborn child and the issues that relate to abortion, embryology, surrogacy and genetics. It would not be the first time that the committee has sent a petition to Westminster.

The Convener:

No, but the clerk has reminded me that the petitioner's main concern is with civil law and obtaining an apology under that law. We could pass the Executive response and the petition to both justice committees—or the one that agrees to take it—and ask whether they are interested in pursuing the points raised in the petition. It is ultimately for them, not us, to handle the petition.

Dorothy-Grace Elder:

It is particularly pitiful that the petitioner is having to ask for an apology through the petition. He has not been able to extract an apology from the driver who caused the fatal crash. Many people would ask for an awful lot more than an apology.

The Convener:

I agree, but what the petition suggests would require a change in civil law, which is a matter for one of the justice committees. Is it agreed that we refer the Executive's response and the petition to the justice committees, asking whether they are interested in taking up the issues involved?

Members indicated agreement.


Asbestos (PE336)<br />Scotland Against Crooked Lawyers (PE361)


Less Favoured Areas Support Scheme (PE372 and PE384)

The Convener:

Our final matter is an update on petitions PE336, PE361, PE372 and PE384. I refer members to the paper on the progress that other committees have made in dealing with those petitions.

As members have no questions on that, let me thank everyone for attending. I ask members to hang on at the end of the meeting, if they can, to discuss briefly with our visitors some aspects of the work that we have carried out this morning.

Meeting closed at 12:00.