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Chamber and committees

Procedures Committee, 05 Sep 2006

Meeting date: Tuesday, September 5, 2006


Contents


Work Programme

The Convener:

The next item is consideration of a paper on the committee's work programme, which sets out the issues that we will have to spend time considering between now and the end of the session. Most of the issues are not new—they are mentioned just to remind members.

We will discuss a paper on the review of parliamentary time later in the meeting. We aim to make progress with the review during the autumn. We are not sure whether we will get a parliamentary debate on the issue, but whether or not we do we must make progress and get a definite proposal out during the autumn.

On consolidation bills, the clerks will shortly give us a draft report on proposed changes to the standing orders.

Andrew Mylne (Clerk):

Yes. We expect to produce further material on that at the next meeting.

The Convener:

On members' bills and substitution, we have completed our inquiry and will soon have a revised draft report on proposed changes to the standing orders. The report will be produced soon, but it should not, we hope, take up too much time, as we have already had a lot of debate on the issue.

We now come to new issues. The convener of the Standards and Public Appointments Committee, Brian Adam, has raised an issue about parliamentary determinations. We will have to produce some changes to the standing orders to handle that issue properly. The matter will probably involve a small inquiry, taking evidence from Brian Adam and a report. It should not be very time consuming.

We also have the Transport and Works (Scotland) Bill, which we discussed earlier in an informal session. We have a minister coming next week, but I do not know who else we will want to see. Obviously, our interest is mainly in the parliamentary aspect of the proposed legislation. The Local Government and Transport Committee is the lead committee and it will deal with what we might call the transport aspects of the bill. In light of the difference between the bill and what we proposed, we will want to say something fairly trenchant on the subject.

There is a possible change to the remit of the Finance Committee, which might have some ramifications for this committee. Again, that may involve a small inquiry, presumably interviewing Des McNulty and a change to the rules. Remind me, what is the next stage with regard to the Subordinate Legislation Committee?

Andrew Mylne:

There was the possibility that a fairly major bit of work would come to the committee this session. Due to the timescale of the Subordinate Legislation Committee's own work that will not happen, but the referral of a small, effectively technical, change to standing orders is likely to come our way.

The Convener:

It was agreed that there would be a trial of electronic voting in committees in the Communities Committee, partly to accommodate those of us who put in lots of amendments to the Planning etc (Scotland) Bill. That pilot exercise will be evaluated and may lead to a change to standing orders to enable electronic voting to be more common in committees. That piece of work might come to us.

The visit to Westminster is set out in our paper. Have we made any progress with the correspondence?

Andrew Mylne:

We are waiting for replies from Westminster.

The Convener:

Two other issues have arisen since the clerks wrote the paper, one of which concerns the volumes of guidance that are written by committee clerks for committee clerks. Technically, the committee has to approve those volumes of guidance. I am assured that there are no issues of great substance, so we will not have great debates about them. However, I warn members that a large quantity of reading may be required. Several of those volumes are coming through the system.

The other issue that may arise concerns a curious body that I had not heard of until this morning—the Scottish Commission for Public Audit. It is a committee of MSPs, but it is not a normal committee. Its members have a grumble that because it is not a normal committee its deliberations and so on are not properly publicised, so they might request that we change the rules about them. The subject is a total mystery to me, but I wanted to let members know about it in case something appears in your papers.

That is based on the assumption that you can have a normal committee of MSPs.

I said not "a committee of normal MSPs" but "a normal committee".

Careful use of language, there.

I have shown members that at least I can read. The paper is in front of members.

I have a question about the Finance Committee remit. Is it normal procedure when a committee's remit is to be changed that the matter goes to the Procedures Committee? Why is it being referred to us?

Andrew Mylne:

The Finance Committee is one of the mandatory committees. The definition of a mandatory committee is that its remit is set out in the standing orders, therefore any change requires to come through this committee. The remits of the subject committees are established by a motion at the beginning of the session. If there needs to be a change to a subject committee remit, it can be done by lodging a further motion and the matter need not come to this committee.

I understand. Thank you.

Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab):

Why are we aiming to introduce at the beginning of session 3 rule changes that are the result of a review of parliamentary time? The twilight end of the parliamentary session is a rather odd time to have a wholesale review of the parliamentary week. What is the thinking behind that? I wonder whether it might be sensible to delay such a review until the next full parliamentary session.

The Convener:

My personal view is that it would be better for members who have experienced the various things that they like or dislike to comment on the review. If it were to be started by a new committee after the next election, many of the committee's members would not have given thought to the subject before, so the review would be postponed for a year or two for them to absorb the various points that they were debating. If the review could go through quickly enough, some of the rule changes could be brought into effect in this session. There is no rule against that.

Richard Baker:

I am sorry, convener, but I did not quite catch the end of your comments. I was suggesting not that the review be held over for the next session's committee to take up, but that the rule changes might come into effect at the beginning of session 3. We are in the final stages of this parliamentary session, which is why I was thinking about whether the rule changes should come into effect now, rather than at the beginning of the new parliamentary session. I was not suggesting that the review should be held over to the next committee. I am just raising the question.

So would your preference be that anything that we propose and to which the Parliament agrees should come into operation as soon as it can?

No. If it does not come into effect at the beginning of session 3, it should do so at a later point. However, I want only to put that on the agenda for thought, rather than arrive at a decision now.

Mr McFee:

Actually, it is on the agenda for thought. Under item 4 we will consider a consultation paper that lays out a number of options to which, I hope, MSPs will respond. Indeed, if they respond by saying that they do not wish there to be any changes to the rules, there will not be any changes, so perhaps we are putting the cart before the horse. I understand the rationale for saying that the changes—if there are to be any—should be made at the beginning of session 3, but I would like them to be made sooner, particularly if we are to trial any particular change. However, we will get to that when we see how keen MSPs are on some of the options in the paper.

On that point, we are probably more likely to get our colleagues' approval if they feel that they are subjecting their successors to changes rather than themselves. There may be some mileage in that.

The Convener:

The point is noted.

Given that all the items that we have agreed for the work programme will take time even though many of them are fairly minor, we will not have much time to spare. However, if committee members have issues that they think are important and that they would like to discuss, I ask them to mention them now or send a note to the clerk so that they can make a positive contribution to the workload. It is open season for suggesting interesting ideas.

I gather that Irene Oldfather is not officially entitled to attend as a substitute for Karen Gillon. We welcome her enthusiasm but, unfortunately, under the rules she is not able to stay.

Mr McFee:

That might be something that the Procedures Committee should consider. It is not the first time that it has been raised. It has been raised with the Presiding Officer, because there are different interpretations of the rule. You may have answered the question of what your next inquiry should be.

We must remember that she was entitled to be here as a member of the Parliament. We are simply calling into question her eligibility to vote, not to be present.

Yes, she could have stayed.

The issue arose in our discussions about substitution for members' bills. We could discuss it under item 5.