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Chamber and committees

Subordinate Legislation Committee

Meeting date: Tuesday, December 4, 2012


Contents


Aquaculture and Fisheries (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

The Convener

The purpose of this item is for the committee to consider the delegated powers in the Aquaculture and Fisheries (Scotland) Bill. The committee is invited to agree the questions that it wishes to raise with the Scottish Government on the powers. It is suggested that those questions be raised in written correspondence. On the basis of the responses received, the committee would expect to consider a draft report at its meeting on 18 December 2012.

Section 1(2) enables the Scottish Salmon Producers Organisation—the SSPO—to issue a code of good practice for Scottish fin-fish aquaculture. The effect of the power, which is in the proposed new section 4A(2) to (5) of the Aquaculture and Fisheries (Scotland) Act 2007, is that farm management agreements and statements must reflect, so far as is possible, any recommendations in the code, including recommendations on the various matters set out in subsection (4), such as fish health management. The code also defines the farm management areas in which the requirements apply.

11:00

Does the committee agree to ask the Scottish Government to explain why it is considered appropriate to confer the power on the SSPO by the issue of a code of practice, rather than to provide that the powers to regulate such matters are exercisable by regulations in a Scottish statutory instrument? Such a code is not subject to scrutiny by the Parliament and does not attract the drafting and publication requirements that apply to a statutory instrument. Does the committee also agree to ask why it is considered appropriate to confer power on the SSPO to define the farm management areas for the purposes of the regime rather than to prescribe them by Scottish statutory instrument, which would allow scrutiny by the Parliament?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener

The code of good practice recommends good practice measures for fish farming, and one intention of section 1(2) of the bill appears to be that farm management agreements and statements will require to reflect such good practice. Does the committee agree to ask the Scottish Government to explain why it is considered appropriate to enable the code to include any recommendations that the SSPO determines, which the agreements and statements must reflect so far as possible, as there is no provision that the code or any later document shall specify good or best practice measures that are to be reflected in the agreements and statements?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener

Section 3(1) creates a power for the Scottish ministers to make regulations that prescribe technical requirements for equipment that is to be used for and in connection with fish farming. Further provision can be made to ensure that such requirements are complied with. Section 3(4)(b) provides that the regulations may

“confer functions on any person in relation to the prescribing of requirements.”

Does the committee agree to ask the Scottish Government to explain how and by whom that power is expected to be exercised?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener

Failure to meet the minimum requirements, which are to be prescribed by regulations, shall attract the criminal penalties and other official enforcement measures that will be set out further in the regulations. Does the committee agree to ask the Scottish Government to explain why, in regulations that are subject to parliamentary procedure, it is considered appropriate that persons apart from the Scottish ministers could be given functions in relation to prescribing those requirements?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener

Section 3(6) provides that the regulations could provide for continuing offences and for any such offences to be punishable by a daily or other periodic fine of an amount that is to be specified in the regulations. Unlike the provision in section 3(5) for the maximum penalty for a single criminal offence, section 3(6) states no maximum daily or other periodic fine. Does the committee agree to ask the Scottish Government to explain why that is considered appropriate and whether a maximum penalty could be specified in section 3(6)?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener

Section 9(1) enables provisions to be made to prohibit or control the movement of any commercially damaging species that are present or suspected of being present in any body of water. Section 9(2) provides for the matters that may be contained or provided for in an order under section 9. That section makes no provision for any maximum time for provisions to apply for or about the prohibition or control of the movement of species and so on, and nor does the list of matters that may be included in an order, as set out in subsection (2), include provision as to the authorised period of the controls.

Does the committee agree to ask the Scottish Government to explain why it is considered appropriate not to include in the bill any provisions as to the time for which the prohibition or control of the movement of species and so on will apply?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener

Section 14 provides a power for the Scottish ministers to make control schemes for the control of commercially damaging species on fish and shellfish farms. The relevant orders would not be statutory instruments and would not be subject to parliamentary controls.

Section 14(5)(c) says that a control scheme may

“include incidental, supplemental, consequential, transitional, transitory or saving provision.”

In the absence of an explanation in the delegated powers memorandum, we have no information on how those incidental powers are intended to be used or why they are appropriate without attracting parliamentary procedure.

Does the committee agree to ask the Scottish Government to explain why the power in section 14(5)(c) to make

“incidental, supplemental, consequential, transitional, transitory or saving provision”

in a control scheme is required, in what circumstances such powers may be exercised, and why parliamentary control and the formal requirements of a Scottish statutory instrument are not considered appropriate for such provisions?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener

Section 20 of the bill amends section 44 of, and inserts new sections 46A to 46G into, the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 2003, to introduce good governance obligations on district salmon fishery boards. It is suggested that we ask the Scottish Government to explain why the power in section 20—in new section 46F of the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 2003—is necessary in so far as it enables any modification, including repeal, of section 44(1) of the 2003 act, which provides the “basic” requirement for a district salmon fishery board to prepare annual reports and audited statements of accounts relating to the activities of the board and an annual meeting to consider the report and accounts. It is also suggested that we ask how it is envisaged that the power will be exercised.

Bruce Crawford

I think that we need a bit more discussion on that. One thing that has certainly struck me since I have become involved in the work of the committee is that, whichever Government is in power, we seem to be always looking for ways to make it more difficult for people to get things done.

In this circumstance, it would be more difficult for a Government to move fast and get things done if there was an affirmative process rather than a negative process. I am all for allowing Governments to be freed up from bureaucracy so that they can do things more quickly rather than be stuck with difficult situations. I know that we are asking a question here, but we should not necessarily assume that having the affirmative procedure would be better than what is currently provided.

I absolutely agree with you, and the Rural Affairs, Climate Change and Environment Committee might also agree with you, but I suggest that that is a policy decision, which will be informed by the question.

If we start drawing people’s attention to the issue, they will inevitably start asking questions and we will end up with the affirmative procedure.

I want to back up Bruce Crawford’s very sensible comment. Why has the affirmative procedure been chosen here?

Why should it be affirmative?

Yes, why should the affirmative procedure be used for something relatively modest?

Forgive me, but I do not understand that comment.

Bruce Crawford

Paragraph 96(b) in our legal brief suggests that we ask the Scottish Government,

“given that the power is to modify provisions in the Act, whether the affirmative procedure is a more suitable level of scrutiny for the exercise of this specific power”.

That means that we are asking that an affirmative instrument be laid before Parliament on every occasion rather than just allow the Government to get on and get things done. On this small matter, I am quite happy to allow the Government to get on and get things done.

Even if the order modifies the basic requirements in the original act?

I am talking only about new section 21A(3)(c) in relation to part 5.

Forgive me, but I think that I am talking about section 20 here.

Are we on paragraph 96 of the legal brief, or have I jumped the gun?

I think that you may have jumped the gun. Let us just make sure that we know where we are. I am talking about section 20.

Am I on section 22 of the bill? You are forewarned for when we get to section 22.

You will appreciate that I cannot tell you which section you are on.

I apologise, but John Scott knows where I am. I will come back to the point later.

In wondering why we need the affirmative procedure, I was talking about the suggestion in paragraphs 85 and 86 of our legal brief.

Did you say paragraphs 95 and 96?

No, paragraphs 85 and 86. I wonder why we need an affirmative instrument.

I think that the same issue applies here.

Let me stick with where I am. At this point, we are talking about section 20 of the bill.

And the same point applies.

I think that we have taken the point, but I return to my earlier point that section 20 appears to have the power to modify the basic requirements in the act.

Perhaps our clerks can give us the reason why they are happy that the affirmative procedure is required here.

Does the legal adviser want to add to what has been said?

Colin Gilchrist (Legal Adviser)

Essentially, because the additional governance requirements are specified in the bill, in principle any amendment to them is a textual amendment of the bill. The power in section 20 of the bill to amend section 44(1) of the 2003 act relates to something that was an initial requirement in the 2003 act. As a matter of principle, the affirmative procedure may be appropriate for such textual amendments. The recommendation was made on that basis.

The Convener

Are we comfortable with asking the question? Lots of points have been noted on where that might lead, and I am sure that they will be drawn to the attention of the Rural Affairs, Climate Change and Environment Committee.

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener

Section 22 of the bill will insert a new section 21A into the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 2003. The regulation-making power in the proposed new section 21A(1) of the 2003 act will enable the Scottish ministers to put in place a statutory scheme for carcass tagging of wild salmon. New section 21A(3) states that the regulations may make

“such modifications of Part 5 of this Act as the Scottish Ministers think fit”.

Part 5 confers powers on ministers by regulations to impose charges in connection with the carrying out of fisheries functions. Does the committee agree to ask the Scottish Government to explain: why the power in the proposed new section 21A(3)(c) of the 2003 act to make

“such modifications of Part 5 of this Act as the Scottish Ministers think fit”

is appropriate; why it could not be framed as a power to make modifications that are consequential on making regulations under the proposed new section 21A(1); how it is envisaged that the power could be used; and, given that the power is to modify provisions in the act, whether the affirmative procedure is a more suitable level of scrutiny for the exercise of that specific power, bearing in mind the fact that we are talking about the modification of an act?

I am sorry about my earlier confusion. This is the part that I wanted to address.

I will just restate the principle. Negative procedure is appropriate unless the text of an act is being changed, in which case affirmative procedure is appropriate. That has been our default position.

John Scott

I am not sure whether Bruce Crawford sat on the committee that discussed the 2003 act when it was a bill, but I did and I suggested that fish should be tagged to the ridicule of the then Government. I am delighted to see tagging being introduced even at this late stage.

I can confirm that it is being talked about.

Were you on the Transport and the Environment Committee at the time, Bruce?

Bruce Crawford

I cannot remember, John. You have a much better memory than me.

I agree that we should ask the question but I make the general point that we should be trying to make things easier for people who are in the difficult circumstances in which the world finds itself just now, and that includes the Government. We should not be binding it up with all sorts of rules and regulations and requiring it to keep coming back to Parliament, because it gums up the parliamentary process.

With respect, I do not think that that is any part of our intention. The question is being asked in principle—

I can see the question but if we ask it and draw the issue to the attention of the policy committee, and we end up with an affirmative procedure, that is where it might end up. However, I accept the question.

The Convener

Section 28(3) will insert a new section 33B into the 2003 act that will enable the Scottish ministers to make provision by regulations to recall to ministers, or restrict, district salmon fishery board functions when consenting to the introduction of salmon or salmon spawn into inland waters, under the proposed new section 33A of the 2003 act. Does the committee agree to ask the Scottish Government to clarify, in relation to the powers in section 28(3) of the bill, how section 33A(3A) was added to that act? Section 33A was added by the Aquaculture and Fisheries (Scotland) Act 2007, but that addition did not include a subsection (3A).

There was a question in there; are we comfortable with asking it?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener

Thank you.

Section 50(1) confers a power that will enable the Scottish ministers to make regulations for or about the imposition of charges in connection with the carrying out of fisheries functions, which will also be specified in the regulations. Section 50(2) defines the functions in relation to which the Scottish ministers may impose a charge. Those are functions of the Scottish ministers under any legislation that relates to fish or shellfish farming, salmon or freshwater fisheries, or sea fishing. The section also covers functions of persons who are appointed or authorised by ministers to enforce the legislation, such as sea fishery officers. It extends to functions under domestic and European Union legislation.

11:15

Does the committee agree to ask the Scottish Government to explain why it is necessary for the scope of the powers to extend widely to all the types of functions set out in section 50(2) under domestic and EU legislation, given that the delegated powers memorandum suggests that the regulations will impose charges

“in connection with certain specific fishery functions”,

and why it would not be appropriate for the bill to prescribe those specific functions for which there would be charging, possibly with a power to modify or add to them?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener

Does the committee agree also to ask how it is envisaged that those powers will be exercised, and in relation to which functions they will be exercised, beyond the list of matters that can be covered in regulations in section 50(3)? Given that those are significant new powers to impose charging across a wide range of fisheries and fishing functions, the committee might ask why the affirmative procedure would not offer a more appropriate level of parliamentary scrutiny of the exercise of the powers rather than the proposed negative procedure, in particular for the selection of the specific functions to which the charging regime would apply.

Does the committee agree to ask those questions?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener

The power in section 51(2)(c), which seeks to insert new section 25(2B)(a) into the Aquaculture and Fisheries (Scotland) Act 2007, will permit any amendment of the definition of “relevant offence” for the purposes of the fixed penalty notice provisions in that section 25. Does the committee agree to ask the Scottish Government whether, given that the delegated powers memorandum does not explain why the power to amend the definition of “relevant offence” in any way is required, the scope of the power could be drawn more narrowly?

Does the committee agree to raise all questions in writing?

Members indicated agreement.

Thank you for your patience.

That completes agenda item 4, and item 5 is in private.

11:16 Meeting continued in private until 11:37.