Petitions Process Inquiry
Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for your patience. I welcome you all to the 19th meeting in 2008 of the Scottish Parliament's Public Petitions Committee, in Duns. I welcome particularly the young people from the high school here who will contribute to the discussion on the petitions process. We are delighted that, as part of our continuing process of engaging throughout Scotland, we expect to have more opportunities to visit other parts of the country to allow people to express their views on how the Public Petitions Committee can be developed and, I hope, improved over the next few years.
We are delighted to be here. I think that it is the first time that a committee of the Parliament has met in Berwickshire. I hope that the meeting will be of benefit to an area of Scotland that its people care passionately about, which will be reflected in the discussions this afternoon.
Apologies have been received from colleagues who have other parliamentary commitments. Bill Butler, Nigel Don and Marlyn Glen are all members of other parliamentary committees and, because of the travelling time involved, could not manage to be here. However, a fair cross-section of the committee is present this afternoon.
I welcome the local constituency member, John Lamont, who has been busy over the past 24 hours with challenging issues in his constituency. I am pleased that he has still managed to find the time to come here. He told me earlier that he has been in the school on a number of occasions and that he had a fruitful discussion with students this morning about the role of parliamentarians and the Public Petitions Committee.
A dinner bell might sound at some point during the meeting—I apologise for that. Even if there is a Pavlovian response from hungry members of the committee, they should remain seated. I expect the bell to ring at 1 o'clock. I hope that we will not be affected by it.
We are here for two major purposes. The first is to discuss the petitions process in general; the second is to discuss some specific petitions. We are keen for the Public Petitions Committee to do more each year. We do not believe that democracy is static. We believe that participation and involvement are key elements of a genuine democracy. People will always express their views, and although some will not always believe that their views have been fully acknowledged, the fact that they are freely able to express them and bring them to the Parliament must be a positive benefit. However, the committee is keen to move its agenda forward over the next period, and we want to hear your views on how we might do that.
We do not hear enough views from young people about the petitions process, but I do not think that that is because young people do not have views about it. I know that it might be daunting for you this afternoon—we are away up here at the table and you are seated in the hall—but I would like to hear the views of the many young people here about how young people's perspectives can be expressed in the Public Petitions Committee process.
Because you are of a younger generation than us, you have expertise and knowledge that somebody of my generation does not have regarding new technology and the way in which information technology is developing—I often have to remind myself of that in relation to my children and the teenagers in my family. We welcome your views on how our engagement with young people can be improved.
I spoke to a couple of youngsters at lunch who told me that they had been looking at the recent American election as part of their modern studies project. We are intrigued by the way in which the internet and information and communications technology were effective in putting across the viewpoints of the candidates in the American election. The winning candidate, Barack Obama, who is now President-elect of the USA, used the web probably more effectively than any other politician to date. You might have views on that that can help the Public Petitions Committee.
As a former teacher, I apologise for the terrible habit among those of us who have either retired from teaching or moved on to other occupations of wanting to involve people in discussion. If anyone wants to express a view, they should just stick their hand up. It is a number of years since I was a teacher, so my skills will be rusty and I might not always be able to identify who wants to contribute. Nevertheless, we are keen to hear your views on the issues that we will be discussing.
If anyone wants to contribute to the debate, they should indicate so and a microphone will be passed to them by our able assistants in the hall. If you feel comfortable with standing up to speak, you can do so. If you are not comfortable with it, you can stay seated. You should first tell us who you are. If you are an adult or young person who is representing or involved in an organisation and you want to mention that, you should feel free to do so. Essentially, we are interested in how you think the Public Petitions Committee can work more effectively over the next period.
Before we invite views from the public, do any members of the committee want to add to what I have said?
You have explained everything in minute detail. I am sure that there are many young people in the audience who are desperate to get hold of the microphone and pose a question. The sooner we allow them to do that, the happier they will be.
I invite contributions from the audience. How could the Public Petitions Committee do things better? How do you feel that you could be more involved in the committee? I wish that Parliament was as simple as this. Coming down here today is one thing, but what sort of simple things could we do to ensure that you know more about the committee or can get involved in the work of the committee?
Ben Black (Berwickshire High School):
Although we learned about the committee in modern studies, I did not really know anything about it until today. The best way of getting people like us involved in the committee is to do things like this. Everyone here now knows about the committee. If you want to speak to more people in the Borders and other places, taking the committee to those places is probably the best way to do it.
I read about the committee in the newspaper. I e-mailed the address that was given and was surprised to find that it was not available. I had to resend the e-mail to someone else, which was strange. The real point is that I did not get a response to the e-mail. I spent this morning trying to find out the time of the meeting, because I had taken only the e-mail address from the article in order to e-mail to ask about the meeting. Luckily, someone walked into the library and told me what time the meeting was.
We are disappointed that that has been your experience. We will endeavour to resolve the problem. There are two basic issues here. First, you need access to key information and a quick response; and secondly, there needs to be an easy portal for those who are using the internet to find out exactly when and where things are taking place. You can speak to one of the staff later and they will try to find out whether a particular problem today or in the past couple of days made things difficult for you, or whether there is a structural problem.
Ben Black said that he knew little about the committee. An even simpler question is whether people know what a petition is.
Janie Orr (Berwickshire High School):
I know quite a bit about politics, but I had never heard of the committee. I do not know whether the committee has campaigns, but perhaps it should. The petitions system is a very good one. Many people could take advantage of it, especially young people, whose voices are often not heard.
That is a helpful comment. Feel free to comment, even if you think that what you say might upset people. Express your views. What could we do to help a young, informed person such as Janie Orr to know more about the public petitions process? The important words are public and petition. We need to ensure that you, as members of the public, get a chance to engage with the Parliament through the petitions process. Do you have any instinctive views about how we can do it better?
The obvious area to look at is the internet. I know that the committee has a website, but most young people here have pages on Bebo, Facebook or MySpace. You could engage with them in that way—as you said, that is what Barack Obama did. When I visited the Parliament, I heard about the Health and Sport Committee, but I heard nothing about the Public Petitions Committee. I have heard of most of the MSPs who are here, but I have never seen that they are members of the committee. The Public Petitions Committee is one of the less well-known committees, but it is very important. If anything, it needs to be better known than the others.
You are making us feel good about ourselves.
I am just commenting—I am sorry if I was a bit harsh.
No, you have given an honest opinion. When you are in the bubble, you think that the committee is really important—and it is—but it is not getting into the wider consciousness. Thank you for your comments, which are spot on. I will not ask you to sing now—you are all right.
I represent Coopersknowe residents association. I appreciate the invitation to attend today's meeting, although I am not quite as young as most of the people who are here. I will address the issues that have been raised and describe our experience to you, as we have submitted two petitions to the committee. Convener, we were vaguely aware of the Public Petitions Committee, because occasionally on television we saw your good self or your colleagues receiving a petition at the door. However, we did not pay much attention to it until we really needed something—that is a factor.
As others have said, the petitions process is a revelation—it is excellent. I say that without knowing the final outcome of our two petitions. They will not go forward as submitted, but that is not the issue. For some years, we have been banging our heads against Scottish Water—with the help of Waterwatch Scotland, which Scottish Water also ignores—and Scottish Borders Council on issues that are fundamental to most people in Scotland. You are probably aware of the two petitions to which I refer—we could give you another raft of them. The Public Petitions Committee has made dramatic progress in securing responses from officialdom; very quickly, we have got answers and information that we have been trying to get for years. The underlying point is that officials, local authorities and bodies such as Scottish Water are not good at responding to the public's problems. All strength to your elbow—please keep up the good work. To engage the population for the future, you might consider running a competition for all schools to submit a petition, with a prize for the best one.
I am interested in the problem of getting out to everyone knowledge of what the Parliament and its committees do. I refer particularly to committees such as the Public Petitions Committee and the important Audit Committee, on which I served for a few years, which checks that the money that we spend is spent wisely. I heard mention of Facebook, MySpace and Bebo, all of which are a complete mystery to me, although my younger staff and colleagues use them a lot. I am genuinely curious to know which of those websites would be best for the Parliament to focus on to get knowledge of what we are doing out to the information technology generation—I do not think that committees can engage with all of them.
It depends on who you are trying to reach, as different age groups use different sites. MySpace and Facebook are used by children and adults. Bebo is used mainly by younger people, so I do not know whether you would reach a wide range of people or people who are interested in the committee's work through that website.
Issy Warren (Berwickshire High School):
There are more people on MySpace than on most other chat rooms. If you want to engage with one website, MySpace would probably be the best option, as it is viewed by the largest number of people.
Hundreds of articles have been written about the recent election campaign in the United States, but three particular issues arose—this will echo points that have been made. First, there was an accessible communication system, so information could be exchanged and then passed on by individuals. Secondly, the candidate who did better was the candidate who responded quickly. Thirdly, the communication was personal, which is why that candidate probably received more contributions from ordinary citizens than any candidate before. He made them feel that they were part of his campaign. The system was clear and simple.
We will have to discuss how best to use our resources. Young Scot has petitioned the Parliament, saying that we should be using information technology more effectively because that is how younger people communicate. I am now at an age where I reminisce every week, but the way in which a 16-year-old boy or girl communicates with others today is markedly different from even six or seven years ago. The technology is powerful and can be used effectively.
The question is whether politicians in the Parliament can get sufficiently up to date to deal with the ways in which your technology and methods of communicating are changing every couple of years. You will probably have put in tons of great requests for Christmas presents, and the automatic response from your parents will have been, "I can't believe how much that costs," but you will have said, "This is absolutely essential for me if I'm going to be part of wider groups of friends. None of my pals will talk to me if I don't have one of these."
You might not be able to give us answers today, but I would really appreciate it if the school students in particular wanted to take on a bit of work and send us some good suggestions on using information and communications technology and on interacting. We would certainly consider any such suggestions as part of our evidence on how to improve the public petitions system.
I am conscious that I am rabbiting on a bit. Does anyone else want to contribute?
Richard Dryburgh (Berwickshire High School):
As well as the internet, a "Question Time"-style debate like this one could be used, so that you could hear the views of young people from around the Borders and other areas. Local radio and television could also be used to make everyone more aware of the work of this committee.
Some issues affect not just the younger generation but all generations. One gentleman said that he had experience of petitions but had not really been aware of the Public Petitions Committee before he had an issue that he wanted to raise. There is inertia in the population at large.
Before I became an MSP, I was on a planning committee for years. Only when a planning application suddenly affected people's backyards did they really become interested in getting involved with the planning process. I suspect that something similar happens with the Public Petitions Committee.
I fully appreciate that we need to modernise our methods of communication, but how can we work across the generations? Has anyone any suggestions on what we can do to advertise the Public Petitions Committee to bring it to everyone's attention, not just the attention of the average petitioner, who, in this country, is a middle-aged, middle-class man?
I recently went to a meeting of ethnic minority groups. Of the 60 people in the room, only three knew what a petition was. Communication is clearly an issue—across nationalities, across communities and across age groups. Any suggestions on how to improve that communication would be welcome.
Hello. I am a councillor on Scottish Borders Council. I have listened with great interest to the comments made by the young people. One of the young lads said that he was interested in seeing more people such as committee members coming to the Borders and engaging with people. I attend an event every year called safety in the park, of which you might not be aware. The blue-light services put on that event, at which there are different scenarios related to safety, policing and all the rest of it. It is a wonderful event, and I am sure that some of the young people here or some of their friends have been to it.
Young people want interaction with people like you. I know that it is intimidating to sit in front of a dozen people in blue suits, but this is the way forward. My council has welcomed ministers and MSPs coming to the council to discuss problems. That is the way forward.
Nanette Milne talked about what a petition is. I will tell you what a petition is, because I submitted one to the Public Petitions Committee last year on post offices: it is stuffing 40,000 envelopes and doing all the work involved in delivering them. It takes a lot of hard work to get people to work towards an eventual end, but it is worth it because you are doing something for your community. Please do it in the future.
I know that it is unfair to focus on the young people, but I have another question for them, because we do not have enough such engagement and we need more of it. Would it be helpful if people could text support for a petition? I see that a wee group of folk are saying, "Absolutely." One girl nodded straight away. The microphone has winged its way over to you. Why is that so much simpler for you? Is it because you are never off the thing?
Abbey Nevins (Berwickshire High School):
Yes. I am never off the phone and I always text. It is an easy way to support things.
If our petitions system in future allowed us to interact by text—or through Facebook, MySpace or whatever the format will be in a year or two—and there was an accessible website that was a bit more interactive, would there be better opportunities for young people to engage with the process?
Yes, definitely.
That is helpful.
I come back to the other key point about how we get young people to feel that politics matters to them sufficiently to raise matters with their local members of Parliament or ask for issues to be brought before Parliament, which your local member can do on your behalf. How can we become a bit better at getting young people's viewpoints across when it comes to the raw meat of politics?
That is the crux of the problem. I was disappointed to hear from the youngsters that they were not aware of the Public Petitions Committee. That is not their fault—we as parliamentarians and the Parliament as an organisation should probably produce more information. Many of the youngsters here who were not aware of the Public Petitions Committee probably also do not realise that many other committees within the Parliament conduct business daily. They will see that Parliament meets on Wednesday afternoon and Thursday, but they might be of the opinion that that is all that happens. They probably do not realise that committees undertake a tremendous amount of work. Perhaps the Parliament has a selling job to do.
Anna Merryfield (Berwickshire High School):
It is easy to get in touch with the school. We have a bulletin that is read every morning to everyone in the school. If you put something in there, we will see it straight away. You have the choice whether to contribute. It is really simple and it is available every day.
I will give you an example. In January, the Public Petitions Committee is, for the first time ever, holding a special event in the chamber of the Parliament—not in a committee room, but in the chamber—relating to a petition that calls on the Parliament to tackle the problem of knife crime.
Victims of knife crime in Scotland are primarily aged between 15 and 26 and are mainly young men, although there are incidences of girls being victims. We are trying to overcome the fact that, at present, the dominant voices in the debate are those of professionals and practitioners. We do not always get young people's views on the issues—their feelings of fear or of being unsafe in some communities because of the possession or use of knives. We would like to know what young people think should be done about those issues. If you had a menu of options in front of you—ideas about how to tackle the problem—what would you most favour?
My constituency faces challenges to do with the possession and use of knives and the victims of knife crime. However, the problem exists not just in cities but in small towns. If you have views on how we might tackle knife crime that you want to express, we would like to hear them. We welcome your ideas about how we can communicate with young people, perhaps through schools.
I want to pull the discussion together now. Does anyone have a compelling opinion on the petitions process that they want to express? If you have a eureka moment when you have walked out of the door—which often happens in life—you should feel free to communicate with us on the issue. You might not have mentioned it because you did not think of it at the time, but it would still be useful to have your opinion. Are there any final points that people want to raise about the petitions process? If not, we will move on to the next agenda item.