We move on to agenda item 3. As members are aware, John Finnie is our rapporteur on “Scotland’s National Action Plan for Human Rights”. I invite him to update the committee on his latest meeting with Professor Alan Miller, chair of the Scottish Human Rights Commission.
Thank you, convener. I do not know the extent to which you wish me to go into this. You have the clerk’s paper, but I can make some general comments.
I am very grateful to Professor Alan Miller, who is a very busy man, not just in respect of human rights in Scotland but, as you know, on the European and international stages, where he holds various positions. We discussed Scotland’s national action plan, which is the focus of a lot of the work of the Scottish Human Rights Commission.
In paragraph 5 of the clerk’s paper you will see that culture features in the SNAP. Paragraph 5 talks about
“Innovation Forums to identify opportunities to empower people to understand and use their rights”.
I know from engagement with some groups that historically people have not seen human rights as being particularly relevant to them within a variety of fields, such as health and social care, in which there can be issues with welfare, care homes, the right to dignity and simple things such as levels of hydration—fundamental human rights.
Last week we heard a ministerial statement on the historical child abuse inquiry, which the Scottish Human Rights Commission has been involved in. As you know, it is also a regular respondent to calls for evidence from this committee.
The SHRC has also been involved with the police service, which contributes to Scotland’s national action plan. Members will be aware that the SHRC has engaged on issues such as human rights training at the Scottish Police College. It is fair to record that there have been discussions on some of the issues in relation to stop and search and questions of proportionality. It is good that the SHRC can be seen as an honest broker in the scheme of things; people are willing to engage with it.
There has been planning for a disability summit in 2015 and we discussed the publication of a draft report and delivery plan. I provided some information on the work of the committee and the Justice Sub-committee on Policing in providing scrutiny of issues such as human trafficking and fatal accident inquiries.
I said on behalf of the committee that I would be very happy to keep in touch with Professor Miller on any emerging issues. It is fair to record that one of those emerging issues, regardless of where it sits at the moment, is the difference between the position of human rights in Scotland and their position in the rest of the United Kingdom, and the debate that is to be had on that.
I am happy to answer any specific questions.
I do not know whether Dungavel falls within the SNAP. I and other members have raised in Parliament the issue of the failure to allow welfare checks on the condition of people detained, who after all are not criminals. It has also been raised by the trade unions—the Scottish Trades Union Congress and others. Does that fall in your discussions with Professor Miller? Does he have any remit there? Although technically Dungavel is a UK detention centre, it is on Scottish soil.
Indeed. We did not discuss that particular issue, but I am happy to engage with Professor Miller on it. Historically there have been particular issues about children and young people.
That was dealt with, I recall, by the previous Commissioner for Children and Young People. Children are not detained there now.
Indeed. They are at Yarl’s Wood, as I understand.
Yes, but that is in England.
Only last week we saw a raid there involving children and UK Visas and Immigration. I am happy to discuss what role if any there is for the SHRC.
I am talking about adults, because children are not detained at Dungavel anymore. We dealt a blow to that through the previous children’s commissioner, who really took the issue on board. As she succeeded there, I wonder why, notwithstanding that it is a UK institution in Scotland, Professor Miller of the SHRC cannot do the same thing for adults. On the principle that such things were prevented previously, could people not be let in to see the welfare of the detainees?
I visited Dungavel in the past and I wrote to ask to visit again, but I was told that that was inappropriate. I can certainly speak to Professor Miller about that. There is also the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which is the UK body. I am happy to pick up on that issue and report back.
I do not know whether other members share my concerns about people detained there, with nobody to check on their welfare. People have no time for them. We have just dealt with control of release of prisoners. Detainees at Dungavel do not know when they will be either accepted in the community or sent back. It seems to me just inhuman. Are members content that that human rights issue is raised?
Members indicated agreement.
Nobody has put themselves forward to speak, so I will ask about the case studies, which are very interesting. I dispute the idea that people are not aware of human rights.
No. I said that there is a growing—
I think that the public have become increasingly aware of their human rights. I am interested in the case studies. Is the Health and Sport Committee dealing with those under the pilot projects?
Yes. They are to go to the Health and Sport Committee.
Do we know anything else about that? Do we know what it is dealing with? Do we know what those case studies are?
There was no specific information about that, but I understand that that is imminent because, as you can see, the case studies are to go the Health and Sport Committee this month.
Yes. I am interested in whether people do not know their rights because of how they are treated in hospital. I would like to know more about that.
I will certainly report back on that.
For clarification, there is a reference to an
“Action Plan on Justice for Victims of Historic Child Abuse”.
With the appointment of Susan O’Brien last week, can you comment on the SHRC’s involvement or otherwise in that issue?
That appointment was subsequent to my meeting with Professor Miller, but I think that there was an awareness that there was going to be announcement. The Scottish Human Rights Commission acted as a go-between and did sterling work in getting people who had been in conflict around a table to discuss issues and how to take things forward. I am sure that there will be further updates. Again, I can come back to the committee with that information.
That would be helpful to know.
I dispute with the convener for disputing with John Finnie that people do not know about their human rights. I do not know that people are really aware of what their human rights are or what human rights are about. A lot of what people read in the papers is about offenders and all sorts of people whom they might consider to be undesirable folk. Maybe they do not realise what human rights mean for everybody.
On the innovation forums in particular, I think that, if they involve discussions at the United Kingdom level about repealing the Human Rights Act 1998, it is extremely important that people are made aware of the whole gamut of human rights and how they benefit all of us.
People are more aware of their human rights. Not everybody is, but it is certainly clear from my inbox that quite a lot of people are aware of human rights.
There is an issue, which is not a party-political one, about the growing diversity of views. The action plan is being promoted very positively and is being picked up by the Scottish Government and on a cross-party basis, but there is some negative public relations work on the whole concept elsewhere in these isles.
To go back to the issue about health and social care, I remember what we were told on our visit yesterday about the incidence of mental health issues and the problems that the police face in dealing with them. If there are health and social care pilot projects, I would like mental health to be looked at specifically. It is not just about hospitals; it is about community-based services and what the integration board in particular is doing. There should be a more specific look at mental health rather than just the broad heading of health.
Again, Professor Miller did not go into detail about that, because that is exclusively for the Health and Sport Committee, but I would be very surprised if mental health, which quite often features in rights issues, were not considered. I can confirm that and come back to the committee.
To clarify, the case studies that are
“to be considered by the Parliament”
have not been set up yet. Am I correct?
They are to be considered by the Health and Sport Committee this month.
So you could comment on our behalf that we want mental health to be included. That would be something.
Indeed.
Under the “Culture” heading, the paper refers to a
“series of Innovation Forums to identify opportunities to empower people to understand and use their rights”
Do we know whether any of those innovation forums will talk about what this committee is doing, and particularly about the fact that nobody should be ignorant of the law? A lot of people who have just settled in this country will have big problems understanding what their rights are. Will that come under the programme of innovation forums? Can we get more about the innovation forums?
The particular example that was cited was from the north of Ireland and related to housing regeneration in Belfast. The community was empowered to make decisions, and it fed information into an event that occurred in Glasgow to coincide with world human rights day in December last year. It is about picking up on community empowerment issues and the point that Elaine Murray made about people having an awareness of how rights can be used to support decision making and how they should be embedded in policy decisions.
What about understanding the law and people knowing their rights under the justice system?
At the Justice Sub-Committee on Policing, I raised the issue of information being made available by the police, because it is in the interests of the police for people to understand their rights. I commended a booklet that was issued in the police force that I was in many years ago. I think that the assistant chief constable assured us that that information would be made available online to encourage young people. That is particularly pertinent with regard to stop and search and individuals knowing their rights and entitlements.
I would certainly support the wider teaching of human rights, because they are too often seen by the establishment as threats rather than things that we all have an opportunity to benefit from.
It would be good if you could come back to us and let us know about the innovation forums.
Right.
I note that the paper says:
“SNAP are observing training programmes on human rights issues at the Police College.”
Maybe your wee book is involved.
That would be nice.
Thank you for that very interesting discussion. We will now move into private session.
11:31 Meeting continued in private until 12:01.