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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 9 May 2025
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Displaying 2004 contributions

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Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Emma Harper

This is mentioned in our papers, too, but I have in front of me the policy memorandum to the bill, which refers to the issue of housing that Eddie Fraser talked about earlier. It says that

“a fully integrated”

national care service

“would work closely with other services, such as housing, homelessness, education, the justice system, and the Scottish Prison Service to ensure everyone has seamless access to the support they need.”

I am hearing the concerns that are being expressed locally in Dumfries and Galloway, and I have met Shetland Islands Council leaders who have said to me, “Dinnae mess with this, because what we have in Shetland is working.”

Do we not want to learn from what is working in other places, and from the integration of health and social care and the better services that people have achieved there, and pick up on that in the co-design work to ensure that we engage everybody and bring in housing and everything else that I listed? Is that not the whole point of the bill? Is it not framework legislation that we can say okay to and then work together to tease out the detail?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Emma Harper

I am thinking about the principles of fair work, employment and supporting people into career pathways and routes in a way that supports them as well as the people for whom they are providing care. How do we ensure, in the text of the bill, that those principles can be applied across the whole of Scotland?

I know that it is still early days, but I am thinking about, say, compensation for travel, support for education and aspects of employment—for example, whether someone is employed by one care provider or another. Those issues arise when we get down to the detail of how we support people to be carers, whether in a care home or through care at home. Does the bill have enough detail on that?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Emma Harper

Thank you.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Emma Harper

I have a final quick wee question. You said that it is obvious that the charter should contain the principles that are laid out. I quite like seeing them laid out right there in the bill. It is almost like a seamless transition from saying, “Okay, we talk about the principles and here is what the national care service is going to do”, to saying, “Now, here is what the charter will incorporate.” Is it reasonable to have the charter laid out in this framework bill, as we have just discussed?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Emma Harper

We have looked at the issue of self-directed support, and I know that it is being reviewed. It seems to work really well in some places but not in others. You have highlighted the need to work with colleges, which is about co-working and co-engagement, and I know that, in both its Stranraer and Dumfries campuses, Dumfries and Galloway College is doing a great job in looking at future care providers. I just do not think that people know exactly what self-directed support is or means and how it can be implemented.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Emma Harper

Issues have been raised about the national care service and employment. As we have seen—and, indeed, as I have seen from my own work—social care workers are paid differently in different parts of Scotland. If they are doing the same job, why are they not being paid the same wages? Carers do a vital job and need to be compensated appropriately.

I am interested in hearing whether you think that the bill has enough detail in it to ensure that fair work principles will be realised in the national care service. That issue has come up in various places, and it certainly forms part of the work in which I have been engaging locally in Dumfries and Galloway.

Jennifer Paton might want to go first on that.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Emma Harper

I have an initial question for Councillor Kelly. Before the bill was published, did COSLA reach out to the Government to say, “We’re here and we want to feed into this”?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Emma Harper

So you knew what was coming, kind of, before the bill was published?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Emma Harper

Do you really think that the Government is gonnae take away your electric cars, Eddie?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Emma Harper

Thanks. I think that my question has already been answered.

Secondary legislation comes through committees all the time. I have been an MSP for six years. We approve affirmative legislation: we scrutinise it when it comes to committee, so I do not for one minute think that there will not be appropriate scrutiny of what is coming down the line. I know that this is a big piece of work and that the framework bill sets out where we are to go, but I take on board what Sandesh Gulhane said about organisations that provide care to disabled people and their perception that there will not be the ability to scrutinise the legislation. I suppose that my question is about how we can make sure that the Law Society of Scotland, the Faculty of Advocates and the Scottish Human Rights Commission are still involved in the process as we take all the legislation forward.