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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 3 July 2025
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Displaying 1957 contributions

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Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 18 September 2024

Rachael Hamilton

Will the member take another intervention?

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 18 September 2024

Rachael Hamilton

I think that Jim Fairlie finds himself in quite a paradoxical position. While he has agreed that the Government should remove part 2 of the bill, the pathway to removing it is to create a position where we can look at traceability with confidence. That is the crux of the bill: it is about understanding where those dogs, or pets, have gone. Understanding the welfare and traceability of those dogs is important to the bill.

I also raise the point that my friend and colleague Edward Mountain picked up. Gillian Martin had said that in 2022—I think that this is what Christine Grahame was referring to—the Scottish Government and the UK Conservative Government had had discussions on a consistent approach. If those conversations were had at that time, why have they not been progressed, and why does the minister not know what progress has been made from that initial conversation in 2022?

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 18 September 2024

Rachael Hamilton

I listened to what the minister had to say, and we cannot support amendments 11 and 12. Amendment 11 has weaker wording and would mean that ministers would not have to “include provision giving effect” to sections 2 to 4. Amendment 12 would mean that ministers would not have to include provisions giving effect to section 4.

I am happy to support Rhoda Grant’s amendment 72, and I am very happy to support Finlay Carson’s amendments 61 and 62, which seem entirely sensible.

My key opposition is to amendment 16. As the bill is currently drafted, the code of practice must be published within six months of royal assent. I welcome the fact that the minister has accepted the committee’s recommendation to increase that period to 12 months, to allow sufficient time for an effective consultation. However, amendment 16, which was also lodged by the minister, would allow the Scottish Government to change the date by which the code of practice must be published. That suggests—as I said when I intervened on the minister—that the Government suspects that the timescale will likely not be achievable and that the Government will fail to meet it, despite its having been increased to 12 months. I cannot support amendment 16, because it is wrong that the Scottish Government could create a loophole in the bill to give it an easy way out if it failed to keep to the required timescale.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 18 September 2024

Rachael Hamilton

I will press you a little more. If it is not a legal requirement for people to keep the certificate—if they do not have to produce it—then the only reason that you are putting the amendments in is because of the perception that having a certificate is actually not necessary.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 18 September 2024

Rachael Hamilton

We would not be introducing further legislation if the original campaigns had been effective. I am supportive of Finlay Carson’s amendments 75 and 76, and Ariane Burgess’s amendment, but do you think that we should look at how effective the previous awareness campaigns have been and lodge amendments at stage 3 to reflect that?

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 18 September 2024

Rachael Hamilton

But you have just said that, Ms Grahame.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 18 September 2024

Rachael Hamilton

It seems that the minister is hanging his hat on the so-called expertise of the Scottish Government. With other policies that the Scottish Government has brought forward, such as minimum unit pricing, the approach has not necessarily been successful. Ariane Burgess correctly talked about a preventative agenda and ensuring that there is funding behind the bill. We should also take into account what Christine Grahame has said. It is important that we get to the root of changing the future in terms of awareness.

Your amendment is entirely sensible, convener. I understand what the Government is trying to say—that it does not want the measure in the bill—but perhaps it should be in the bill, given some of the other policies that it has brought forward and which, with hindsight, have clearly have not worked.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 18 September 2024

Rachael Hamilton

Will the minister take an intervention?

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 18 September 2024

Rachael Hamilton

Yes, please. Thank you, minister. I indicated that I had worked with the very helpful bill team. On amendment 79, the team stated that the estimated cost of establishing a database was £140,000 in the initial year. It added that further costs are more difficult to estimate but that it seems likely that those would fall to around £100,000. Obviously, there would have to be a financial memorandum if the cost was more than half a million pounds. Would you not agree, minister, that £140,000, which is the cost estimated by the bill team, is good value compared with potentially having a long, protracted conversation with the UK Government? The Scottish Government is entirely able to create its own database and, in comparison with other things that get agreed to in this place, at a relatively small cost.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 18 September 2024

Rachael Hamilton

On the point about the resource and the time that it would take, in our stage 1 report we asked that the Scottish Government get back to us—