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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 16 July 2025
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Displaying 825 contributions

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Meeting of the Parliament

A75 Improvements

Meeting date: 11 January 2023

Oliver Mundell

How does Emma Harper explain why it has been possible to dual and improve roads in other parts of Scotland but it has not been possible for her party, which has been in government for 15 years, to find the money to do anything in the south of Scotland, and on the A75 in particular? Nothing. Zero.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Oliver Mundell

On your previous comments, what vested interests do you think that the Faculty of Advocates and the Equality and Human Rights Commission have in raising concerns about the appropriateness of a framework bill?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Oliver Mundell

I suggested to you in my previous question that the faculty has concerns about the appropriateness of the bill as the mechanism for bringing matters forward and you replied that some of the organisations that have been critical of the bill have vested interests. Are you saying that you were not referring to the evidence of the faculty or the Equality and Human Rights Commission?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Oliver Mundell

Have you read those organisations’ submissions?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Oliver Mundell

That is helpful. It has always been my understanding that, although parliamentarians can speak to ministers, raise points and do other things to impact the wording of regulations, they have no power to change what regulations say. That is a fundamental concern. That differs from primary legislation, where any member of the Parliament can propose changes to the wording of a bill.

That leads me to a final question. MSPs can only amend what is in the bill. If we have less information in the bill, there is less opportunity to amend the wording, which dictates the meaning of the legislation. Is that correct, minister?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Oliver Mundell

I have heard the point that the minister has made regarding an open-door policy. During my time in Parliament I have always found the minister easy to work with on issues. However, with the best will in the world, part of the problem here is that you cannot guarantee that you will be the minister making the decisions. We face that issue time and again when we are considering other powers and legislation. The promises that you make as a minister today are only as good as the time that you spend in this particular office. My worry is that we are handing over to ministers quite wide-ranging powers on a very significant piece of legislation. Ordinarily, we would expect this kind of bill to have much more detail. Do you not think that that is a problem?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Oliver Mundell

I hear what you are saying, and I have trust and faith in people, but the question that I ask myself is whether I have trust and faith in Government ministers to listen. You are asking us to put a huge amount of trust and faith in Government ministers—rather than the Parliament itself—to do that listening. A number of organisations, including the Equality and Human Rights Commission and the Faculty of Advocates, question whether that approach is appropriate. The Care Inspectorate has questioned whether there is enough information to know how it will work in practice. That is not getting off to a good start in building confidence, is it?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Oliver Mundell

Why does it surprise you that organisations would be concerned, not about the substance of the bill but about the process? Why does it surprise you that organisations would be concerned about the appropriateness of the bill that you are presenting to Parliament?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Oliver Mundell

Why do the Faculty of Advocates and the Equality and Human Rights Commission have concerns about a framework bill?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Oliver Mundell

I accept that. However, it is a concern that organisations that most people would accept as having no direct vested interest in the bill, which are experienced in how legislation works and have interacted regularly with the Parliament’s legislative process over the past two decades, are questioning the appropriateness of the Government’s chosen method in a major piece of legislation. This committee has a role to play in reporting on secondary legislation and it is worrying that major organisations are questioning not the substance of the bill but the Government’s approach. There is a big risk attached to asking the Parliament to go forward with what you described as a novel approach, which seems to be based entirely on trusting ministers to listen—something that I do not think is the experience of people across the country.