Chamber and committees

Finally, what would you like to see from the Crown Office? I am not talking about any live proceedings—that would not be appropriate—but five years is clearly an awfully long time to wait for anything to happen. You are not the only family that has been waiting that long. What improvements would you like to see in the Crown Office? What would be your big ask of the new justice minister?

Okay. That is good to know.

Does the sheriff assign people to specific institutions or just to be held in custody? Who decides where people go?

Good morning. I thank Linda Allan for coming and for sharing her experience. It has been a horrific couple of years for you and your family, and it is brave of you to share that with the committee, because that is important. I am sorry to hear that the investigation is on-going.

I am trying to get my head round this issue. It is important that we take as wide a range of views as we can on the Government’s proposed legislation. There are three places that someone can be sent to, either on remand or when they have been sentenced to be held in custody: secure accommodation, young offenders institutions or adult prisons. I am trying to see which is the right place for certain cohorts of people.

At the moment, the decision seems to be based on an arbitrary age cut-off. The bill proposes that, up to 19 years of age—effectively, while they are still 18—someone can only be held in secure accommodation, with an expectation that they would probably then move to a young offenders institution, depending on the length of their sentence. It would be unusual for that to be so long but, in the unlikely event that it was longer than that, they would then be moved to an adult prison at some point—perhaps at the age of 25 plus.

Are you comfortable with that set-up, and does it work? Is age the factor that should be taken into account, or are there other factors? How should the Government create rules to know which settings are the right ones for the people who are put into them? I am a bit confused by some of the evidence that I have heard so far.

Perhaps Kate Wallace could start, then I will come to Ms Allan.

That is very interesting. Much of the prison estate is very old and antiquated and is not fit for what you suggest.

Another thing that struck me was the idea that the first three months are vital and key. We have not explored that area. It is not covered in the bill as such, but the period of time when someone enters custody is vital, whether they are an adult or younger. At the moment, what is not happening when someone enters custody that should be happening? What could be done better to reduce the risk involved in those first three months?

There has been quite a lot of criticism. It is not directed at individuals; we know that all prison officers are under a huge amount of pressure and stress. Nonetheless, there are some stark statistics on suicides among young people in custody. Do you have a view on that? Are they preventable or inevitable? Do you think that the situation could be improved but that that would require a huge amount of further investment and resource?

I appreciate that there are efforts in that respect. I have a final question, which is for Wendy Sinclair-Gieben.

I have one or two more questions, based on things that struck me as you were speaking. I was struck by what Katie told you about life inside a young offenders institution and the kind of people who are in there. I presume that she was talking about female inmates rather than the general population.

I guess that I am trying to work out what the role of our young offenders institutions is, because there seems to be opposition at both ends of the argument. Some think that people who are old enough to be in adult prisons can be in YOIs but that people at the lower end of the age spectrum absolutely should not be in them at all. It is difficult to see what their place in the justice system is.

To present a scenario, is it appropriate for a 24-year-old adult male who has committed a serious sexual assault or rape to be held in a young offenders institution? Equally, is it appropriate for an 18-year-old who has committed the same offence, and is of sound mind, to be held in secure accommodation? Are you saying that it would be okay as long as they are separate from children—or from other younger children? I guess that there is a moral and philosophical question about how we treat people. Everyone is an individual, and where they are in the system is unique. I am trying to get my head round how we can use arbitrary rules to deal with quite complex individual cases.

The reason that I asked the question is that the policy note states specifically that the provision will

“facilitate the transfer of prisoners”—

not necessarily evidence—

“to and from these countries”.

Section 31 of the 2003 act talks about evidence being given digitally or via video or telephone, which might make it easier for someone to participate in legal proceedings in another country—I understand that—but then the policy note goes on to talk about the removal of people.