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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 July 2025
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Displaying 1619 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

It does. Thank you very much.

Gerald Michie, you are in that environment day in, day out, and you will have a lot of experience of the types of people who come in to be under your care. You may have heard the feedback from our previous witness about what she thought the different cohorts of people were. From your experience, do you believe that a young offenders institution as an environment is the right place for the types of people who are being placed into custody there, or would you like to be able to do more in certain areas, but you are perhaps restricted by people’s legal status, for example?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

Okay. However, you do not think that they should be there.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

So you could immediately accommodate a substantive change to how and where people are placed.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

How many of the 84 beds in secure accommodation, which is designed to cater for 16 and 17-year-olds under the current legislation, are available or were available at the time when those people were placed in Polmont? I am trying to understand why you have them at all.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

You mentioned the three cohorts of people who have been sentenced by a judge or sheriff for making a mistake in life. I presume that something serious would have to have happened for a custodial decision to be taken. There are people who are institutionalised, with patterns of offending, because they feel safer and more comfortable in that type of life, away from harm outside in the real world, and there are people who are very unwell. Do you mean that they have been traumatised by historical adverse experiences in life and have mental health issues?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

Okay, so none of the people that you have in Polmont is there as a result of a lack of capacity in secure accommodation.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

Who made the decision to put them in Polmont?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

I really appreciate your feedback. All of that will be noted and considered when we look at the implications of the financial memorandum to the bill.

As you might have picked up from my questions to the previous panel, I am trying to get my head round what people believe the role of young offenders institutions is. If there is general agreement that they are not the place for 16 and 17-year-olds—and perhaps not even the place for those who are older, depending on the direction of travel of the bill—what type of people ought to be held in YOIs in Scotland? Is it about age, the nature of the offence or the perceived risk to the public or victims? It is quite hard to get your head round what sort of environment YOIs should be.

That might be a question for the Government because, ultimately, it controls which institutions we have, but do you have any comments?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

Okay—that is perfect timing.

Wendy, I was intrigued by a comment that you made at the start of the session. The bill takes quite a prescriptive, black-and-white approach, with age-based parameters. However, I get the impression that other factors could, or should, come into play in determining where the best place for someone might be. Alternatively, is a one-size-fits-all approach, in which people progress from one institution to another and so on as they age, the only way of dealing with the matter?

You painted a scenario in which it would be entirely inappropriate for a 24-year-old with serious developmental issues to be in an adult prison but, equally, it would be entirely inappropriate for a 24-year-old who is of sound mind and who committed a very serious offence of assault, murder or rape to be in a secure environment among children.

Can you expand on that, and say how legislation could perhaps be better used to deal with those scenarios?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

You probably listened quite a lot to the work that we did on bail and release from custody—I am sure you followed that. One of the comments that was made was that political decisions often come down to what the public appetite is for risk. Do you think that there is a public appetite for the direction of travel whereby 21, 22 and 23-year-olds who have committed serious offences would be deemed to be children in the eyes of the judicial system?