Chamber and committees

:Last year, the figure for the four-hour target was 67 per cent, but it was 60 per cent this January. Last year, the figure for the 12-week out-patient target was 61 per cent, but that has now dropped significantly to 54 per cent. That is basically half of the 95 per cent target. You are not a couple of percentage points away; you are way off.

I am not trying to trick you or catch you out, but we are talking about a health board that has faced serious financial difficulties year on year for nearly a decade, and it is still not meeting several major targets. My case load is chock-a-block with people who are at their wits’ end waiting for treatment. It is difficult to see what the end of the tunnel will look like.

For many of the reasons that you have already given regarding the demographics and the deprivation levels in the areas that you cover—particularly in North Ayrshire and parts of the two other Ayrshires—is the problem that, without more cash and people, you will just never be able to hit the targets? Is it not the case that you are trying to balance the books for your audit rather than asking for more money from the Government to deliver the services that you need to deliver?

:That is just as bad.

:Good morning. Let us just put all this into context. The Auditor General does not produce these reports just for the fun of it; he usually does so when there are valid concerns or a rationale for investigating such things.

We have always had an interest in the Scottish Government’s interactions with your business, and we are aware of issues including the Serious Fraud Office investigation, which has remained live over a number of years; the issues that you are facing in your other site in Scotland; some of the other insolvency and liquidation proceedings that other parts of the business are going through at the moment, including quite a substantial administration in Australia that requires huge Government support; various international legal and regulatory investigations, such as the one in Romania into embezzlement and fraud; and your failure to file accounts or appoint auditors in the UK. It is just a big, long catalogue of misgovernance and poor practices. Please tell me in which way GFG Alliance is a fit and proper organisation to do business with in Scotland.

:I appreciate your frankness on that, but you can see that the optics around this are absolutely dreadful.

:Particularly when the Scottish Government is exposing the taxpayer to risk on the guarantees. I appreciate the value of that risk has come down over the years—we have seen some statistics around that and have had Government officials in to update us on that. That is a welcome and positive direction of travel, although there is still a huge amount of uncertainty about how much revenue the Scottish Government and, therefore, the taxpayer is earning from the deal—that is entirely opaque, I have to say.

Given what you have said, it seems to be a group of companies that just makes really bad investment decisions. Why would you invest in a business that is uneconomic? You are not a charity, that is for sure.

:On a more parochial point, without going into the commercial details of the deal that you made with the Scottish Government, I note that a public commitment was made to invest in the Lochaber site. I have seen various figures, including £70 million and £80 million. How much have you invested?

:There are a lot of ifs. Five years ago, you promised that there would be 2,000 jobs—

:Someone must have made that claim.

Good morning. I will ask some other questions later in the evidence session, but I want to pick up on the point about brokerage and support funding. Will you describe the difference between the two? That is a question for anyone on the panel who feels comfortable answering it.

My understanding is that brokerage was essentially loans to the health board, and there was an expectation that, at some point, those loans would be paid back. You will have watched the previous evidence sessions, at which we heard that there is no expectation that you will ever be able to pay any of that money back. For example, in NHS Ayrshire and Arran, where will you find £130 million? Is it hidden away somewhere in your account?

What is the difference between what the Government was previously doing with the brokerage money to help you to break even versus what is happening with deficit support funding? I use that specific phrase because it was used earlier. What is deficit support funding? Is it a loan, or is it just an in-year cash injection with no expectation that you will need to pay it back?

:There is no requirement to pay the deficit support back, but it is agreed at the beginning of the year and it is predicated on you meeting your savings targets. Just to clarify, if you do not meet your savings targets, will you not get the deficit support?