Chamber and committees

Perhaps, for the benefit of time, you could write to the committee in advance of our preparation of the stage 1 report and we can analyse the information. That would be helpful.

To go back to the previous answer on reoffending, I get the impression that there was an expectation that a cohort of the prisoners would reoffend anyway because of the length of their sentences and the fact that they had not been in prison long enough to be rehabilitated, for want of a better word. If you knew that there were such high rates of reoffending in that cohort of short-term prisoners, why were they released early, cabinet secretary?

That does not answer the question. The question was: if you knew that there was such a high rate of reoffending, why on earth was it considered sensible to release those people even earlier than automatic early release, which is already debatable, at 50 per cent of their sentence?

I will need to check the Official Report, but I think that the language that you used is that there is an expectation that the issue will not affect a large number of cases. However, the answer is that we do not know whether 1,300 is the absolute number of affected cases, or whether more people have previously been released because the system incorrectly scored them. We could find them if we delve into historical archives and look on a case-by-case basis, but that is a tremendous amount of work. When will we know exactly? When will that piece of work be finished, so that we have a much bigger picture?

That is interesting. I guess that the bar association’s concerns were not just technical. Although it mentioned technical issues in certain circumstances, the impression that I got was that the issue was more a point of principle—that is, the concept that the solemnity of the court is sacrosanct in the Scottish legal system. Mr Murray said:

“We are dealing with people’s lives and … their liberty.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 2 March 2022; c 14.]

The court environment seems to be a prudent place to deal with people’s liberty and serve justice.

I will ask the Crown Office about the numbers, because those are key to getting an idea of the impact. Mr Donnelly, if the bill is passed and we move to virtual trials by default, with exceptions on application, will that apply only to domestic abuse cases? Would you like it to apply only to those cases? Could all cases start in a virtual setting by default but, on the decision of the sheriff or the court, move to physical hearings case by case? What sort of numbers are we talking about with the backlog of cases that we have to get through? Is going to virtual trials by default an appropriate way of reducing the backlog, or are there other, better ways in which we could do that?

I appreciate that other members have questions, so I am happy to leave it there, convener.

Yes, there is a big difference. Most people would agree with the premise that the ability for witnesses not to be in the same room as the accused has been beneficial in many cases, such as the examples that you listed, including the protection of vulnerable witnesses, especially in domestic abuse cases. However, to be fair, that ability existed before the pandemic.

I want to follow up on a point that the convener made, which you picked up on. You said that, overall, the feedback—admittedly from sheriffs—had been positive, but you also mentioned defence. We have heard quite the opposite. I will quote a point that was made by a representative of the Scottish Solicitors Bar Association, which the convener raised earlier. They said:

“I can say—on behalf of the vast majority of the profession, I think—that the experience has ... been nothing but a resounding failure.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 2 March 2022; c 13.]

That is quite a stark comment to make to the Criminal Justice Committee. Do you simply disagree with that assertion or will you agree to disagree with it?

The big difference is that we are moving from a system of application where, if all parties agree to it, the trial can proceed as a virtual trial. From members’ lines of questioning, it sounds as though there has been a relatively low volume of cases, so it is difficult to see what effect the move to virtual trials has had on outcomes, which is the key point.

Katy Clark made the point that it might be prudent to perform a much wider pilot involving a larger volume of virtual trials to see what the outcome of that would be. The bill proposes to make virtual trials the default, which would mean that people would have to apply for a trial not to be virtual, which represents a complete reversal of the current situation. The key point is that what is proposed is not an extension of, but a big change from, what we are currently doing.

Please give me a second, convener—I was expecting to ask questions on early release, but I will do it in that order.

I do not have a huge amount to ask about time limits, but I am sure that the cabinet secretary has already listened to some of the concerns that have been expressed on the issue. In the previous evidence session, I reiterated the need for limits to be extended to ensure that cases do not expire or time out in any way. No one wants that to happen. However, there is concern about the length of time and the possibility that, because of the backlog, the limits might be permanent rather than temporary. Why might you need a long-term power to extend time limits, given that the proposed limits go way beyond anything ever experienced in the Scottish legal system and, in some cases, beyond international norms, standards and laws?

So you deem the power to be proportionate. When will it expire? Will it be in 2025, as set out in the sunset clause?

I will maybe continue with Mr Purdie, as he has all the figures. My apologies to the cabinet secretary for not jotting down the figure earlier but I am glad to get an updated number.

How does that figure compare to the number of cases in wider society? Can you contain cases more easily in a prison environment or is it more difficult, due to the nature of the estate?

What effect has any relaxation of some of the restrictions that were needed during the temporary Covid measures—such as those around visitation or people being out on licence or temporary release—had on the relativity of the case rate versus the population? Are we seeing a marked proportionate increase in the positivity rate as a result of the relaxation of some of those restrictions?