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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 23 July 2025
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Displaying 1619 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Correspondence

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Jamie Greene

I will just add that, if the process is revised, it is unclear who the ultimate arbiter would be or what appeals process would be in place if, for example, organisers of such events felt that a decision had been made wrongly at local level. If there is no national consistency, how would that be presented at local level? Those issues need to be cleared up.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Jamie Greene

Do you think that the Government would do that even if a better service was being run more cheaply?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

I want to follow on from my previous line of questioning around scenario planning. Is there any concern from the Prison Service that, due to the events of the past two and a half years, during which you admit that the rehabilitation service that you would like to have provided has been lacking, coupled with the real potential for reverting to a Covid-like clamp down on what happens in prison, that might create a pressure pot leading to increased violence in prisons, further attacks on staff or even the potential for rioting?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

Last week, we heard quite clearly from other justice partners that a flat cash settlement or a real-terms cut in your budget would equate either to a reduction in head count or to a pay freeze. It is as simple a choice as that. In your scenario, which of those is most likely, given your commitment to a pay award that is above the public sector pay policy? What are the effects of any potential pay freeze or a reduction in staff if either of those scenarios play out?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

What sort of action?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

I will start by looking at some of the budgetary pressures and the scenario planning that you have done. You are quite clear in your submission that

“Due to the nature of our functions there is no or at most, very limited, opportunity to the scaling back of our operations without significant risk to health and welfare support ... reputational damage, the loss of”

services

“and risk to operational stability across the estate.”

Will you elaborate on what you mean by that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

To clarify your projections—my colleague Russell Findlay covered some of this—you modelled three scenarios: realistic, optimistic and pessimistic. Initially, I had the impression that you had modelled on the basis of a realistic outcome, but the commentary in your submission tends to lean more towards a pessimistic outcome. Where do you sit on that scale at the moment? Whether your outlook is realistic, optimistic or pessimistic, there is still a funding gap in each scenario.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

I am sure that that will be noted by the Government and that you will make your case diligently.

My final point is on an important general theme. A lot of the work that the committee does is centred on outcomes for the general public, including victims of crime. Notwithstanding the evidence that we took last week, what I take from your written submissions is the warning about the risk to the victim-centred approach that your organisations currently take. Any loss of skills or expertise or staffing resource would put massive pressure on that and would perhaps undermine much of the effort that you are making to move towards a more trauma-informed practice of working.

What reassurance can you give the public that, even though you are staring down the barrel of difficult budgets over the next few years, should it transpire that you experience real-terms cuts, victims will still remain at the heart of the justice system, no matter what happens? I am sure that many people who are watching this session will be worried and concerned about the direction of travel.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

I appreciate that, in your submission, you mentioned energy and food costs, but those are 4 per cent and 2 per cent of your overall budget, whereas pay is 60 per cent of your budget and therefore the lion’s share of your costs. You say that

“a flat cash position ... would require restraint on pay increases and a review of the current employee operating model.”

You suggested that neither a reduction in staff nor a pay freeze can take place, but it sounds like both would have to take place. I still do not understand what a flat cash settlement would mean for pay and staffing numbers.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

It sounds as though you might not have any choice, though. You get what you get with finances for resource budgets, so it will be one or the other, will it not?