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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 5 November 2025
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Displaying 1262 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

I do.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

I would like to clarify something. Earlier in your statement, and particularly during your response to Martin Whitfield, you said that you were “confident” that the courts will do something, that one of the amendments will possibly “impact on ... rights” and that you think that the

“amendment distorts the existing legal protections”.

Can you help the committee to understand whether you have received any formal legal advice that gets you to that position to reject the amendments, or is that just what you think?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

Thank you.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

Again, with the committee’s indulgence, I will speak to amendment 206, in Russell Findlay’s name. Mr Findlay apologises for not being able to be with us today due to other committee business.

Victims must be heard. Recently the Criminal Justice Committee heard powerful and moving accounts from six rape survivors. Those women described being

“treated as a bit of evidence”,

“not respected”, “treated with contempt”, feeling as if “I did not matter” and feeling like “collateral damage”. They also described the court environment as “threatening”, and one said:

“the justice system failed me more than the perpetrator”.—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 17 January 2024; c 6, 37-8.]

It was astonishing testimony about what were all recent cases.

The Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003 gives victims of certain crimes the right to make a statement on the crime’s impact, to be submitted to court after a conviction and prior to sentencing to inform the judge or sheriff in their sentencing decision. That has since been extended, with victim impact statements now commonplace.

As I said last week, more serious cases will be dealt with by the panel, and the number of cases will inevitably increase with the raised age limit. One would think it obvious that a victim should be heard, regardless of whether they have been assaulted by an 18-year-old sent to a panel or someone older who is in court. Looking back, therefore, I would say that the arguments for victim impact statements as a principle have been made and accepted. Victims must have their say, regardless of the forum, and amendment 206 would ensure that their voices are heard and that important rights are not seen to be eroded.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

Before you move on, can I intervene? I will not get a chance to sum up, so I offer an intervention.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

They may be technical amendments, but surely the minister ought to put on the record why the amendments are necessary and have therefore been lodged, so that the committee at least can understand, and so that anyone who is reading the Official Report is able to understand in the future.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Liam Kerr

But that principle is not offended by amendments 189 and 190. To say that it is, is factually incorrect, is it not?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Liam Kerr

Amendment 179 is another of Russell Findlay’s amendments that I will speak to, as he is unable to be with us today.

This amendment relates to the principle of transparency with regard to open justice. As I explained earlier on amendment 189, victims groups have raised serious concerns about an information vacuum in relation to the panel system. As was set out earlier, more criminal cases will be dealt with by the panel, and that number will increase as a result of the rise in the age.

Scotland’s courts are public buildings. They are open to the public, with proceedings conducted, by and large, in public—that is the default position, albeit that there are important safeguards in place. Judges are, of course, able to conduct proceedings in private and to issue other orders where relevant in relation to victims and witnesses, but the principle remains that transparency is fundamental to open justice, and that must be cherished. Amendment 179 simply seeks to extend that transparency to the panel system, which is increasingly dealing with cases—often serious—of a criminal nature. Crucially, the amendment caveats that by ensuring that the chair will still be able to refuse attendance when that is in the best interests of the child.

I move amendment 179.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Liam Kerr

How does the principle that the minister has just elaborated stack up against the caveat in section (2) of the amendment, which would allow the chair to make the appropriate decision in the best interests of the child?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Liam Kerr

I have listened very carefully to what the minister has to say, and she says that she does not agree with the premise of the amendment, but the premise of open justice and transparency is core. Russell Findlay has also put in, very clearly—