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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 9 May 2025
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Displaying 1112 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

I could do, convener, but, with respect, I think that you just need to call the amendments. You proposed putting the question to the amendments en bloc, and I have objected to that.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

I am grateful for the intervention, but I do not think that the amendment would create that duplication. First, it would allow the statement to be made when the court has remitted a case following conviction, and secondly, it would allow the passage of time to be observed. We should remember that the amendment would give the victim the opportunity to make a victim impact statement, instead of imposing an obligation in that respect. That choice will still be there, but the amendment provides an important right to the victim. Should they need to update any previous victim impact statement as a result of, say, some post-traumatic event, it gives them the opportunity to do so.

As I said, I am grateful for the intervention, but I think that I have answered the point in my response.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

Help me to understand something on amendment 91, minister. The court that initially puts a non-harassment order in place has a victim impact statement to assist it, but, because the Government intends to vote down amendment 206, the panel might not be able to avail itself of the same level of information. Am I reading that right?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

Is it correct that a victim impact statement will be available in one forum but not the other?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

Something occurs to me that follows on from Willie Rennie’s well-made point. Has the minister considered the possibility that the solution might be to remove the sections, have the round table and bring the provisions back in a final format in whatever the next vehicle is—the next bill that comes forward—in order to get it right, rather than to pass something that may need to be reviewed later?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

I do.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

I would like to clarify something. Earlier in your statement, and particularly during your response to Martin Whitfield, you said that you were “confident” that the courts will do something, that one of the amendments will possibly “impact on ... rights” and that you think that the

“amendment distorts the existing legal protections”.

Can you help the committee to understand whether you have received any formal legal advice that gets you to that position to reject the amendments, or is that just what you think?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

Thank you.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

Again, with the committee’s indulgence, I will speak to amendment 206, in Russell Findlay’s name. Mr Findlay apologises for not being able to be with us today due to other committee business.

Victims must be heard. Recently the Criminal Justice Committee heard powerful and moving accounts from six rape survivors. Those women described being

“treated as a bit of evidence”,

“not respected”, “treated with contempt”, feeling as if “I did not matter” and feeling like “collateral damage”. They also described the court environment as “threatening”, and one said:

“the justice system failed me more than the perpetrator”.—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 17 January 2024; c 6, 37-8.]

It was astonishing testimony about what were all recent cases.

The Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003 gives victims of certain crimes the right to make a statement on the crime’s impact, to be submitted to court after a conviction and prior to sentencing to inform the judge or sheriff in their sentencing decision. That has since been extended, with victim impact statements now commonplace.

As I said last week, more serious cases will be dealt with by the panel, and the number of cases will inevitably increase with the raised age limit. One would think it obvious that a victim should be heard, regardless of whether they have been assaulted by an 18-year-old sent to a panel or someone older who is in court. Looking back, therefore, I would say that the arguments for victim impact statements as a principle have been made and accepted. Victims must have their say, regardless of the forum, and amendment 206 would ensure that their voices are heard and that important rights are not seen to be eroded.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

Liam Kerr

Before you move on, can I intervene? I will not get a chance to sum up, so I offer an intervention.