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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 29 October 2025
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Displaying 1124 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny and the Scottish Attainment Challenge

Meeting date: 27 September 2023

Jenny Gilruth

There are inherent risks, but I go back to Shirley-Anne Somerville’s experience last December—the Government provided an extra £145 million, but there were fewer teachers to show for it. Trust is not a one-way street. When the Government provides that additionality, we will look to recoup it if it is not invested in teachers. Fundamentally, that is because we believe that good-quality learning and teaching is what makes the difference in closing the poverty-related attainment gap.

I would like us to go back, in our parliamentary debates and more broadly in Scottish education, to our conversation about good-quality pedagogy and how it can make a difference in our schools. That is the silver bullet in all of this, but some of the recent discussion about closing the gap has moved us away from that. We need to go back to talking about the role of the teacher, the importance of good-quality learning and teaching and how that can raise attainment for all and close the gap.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny and the Scottish Attainment Challenge

Meeting date: 27 September 2023

Jenny Gilruth

On the practicalities of my recouping it?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny and the Scottish Attainment Challenge

Meeting date: 27 September 2023

Jenny Gilruth

As cabinet secretary, I have not discussed that with colleges. I suspect that Mr Dey has, as Minister for Higher and Further Education.

Mr Greer raises an important point about the accessibility of childcare and where that provision exists. If that is a bar to how people engage with their education or it prevents their engagement with it because there are no childcare facilities, that would really concern me.

I do not want to comment on the specifics of individual colleges making decisions about their estate—that is for them. More generally, however, the issue is challenging. I would be keen to pick that up with Mr Dey, although I think that he has been pursuing the matter with the college sector.

At this point, I will bring in Stephen Pathirana.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny and the Scottish Attainment Challenge

Meeting date: 27 September 2023

Jenny Gilruth

I do not think that I could compel colleges to do that.

My own view, and that of the Scottish Government, is that there should not be any compulsory redundancies. To that end, Mr Dey has been engaging closely with the SFC on the issue, on promoting fair work principles and on adhering to our commitment to apply grant conditionality, which was set out in the Bute house agreement. In our engagement with the SFC and with the college sector directly we have been clear about our expectations on redundancies.

I recognise that a number of challenges exist here but, as far as I am aware, I cannot unpick the ONS reclassification, which predates my time in office by nearly 10 years.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny and the Scottish Attainment Challenge

Meeting date: 27 September 2023

Jenny Gilruth

I might bring in Stephen Pathirana on that. I am not sure that the flexibilities would be ring fenced for that specific purpose.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny and the Scottish Attainment Challenge

Meeting date: 27 September 2023

Jenny Gilruth

The current economic environment is very challenging, as I intimated in my earlier responses to Mr Kerr and Ms Thomson. It is fair to say that the flat-cash settlement for 2023-24 has posed a number of challenges to institutions, and I will continue to work with the SFC and the sector to support the strategic change that we need.

I might bring in Stephen Pathirana to talk about the progress that has been made with the SFC. However, if it would be helpful to the committee, in advance of conversations and evidence sessions on the budget, I would be more than happy to provide written evidence in that respect as a supplement to some of the evidence that you might receive.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny and the Scottish Attainment Challenge

Meeting date: 27 September 2023

Jenny Gilruth

I do not have the details in front of me.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny and the Scottish Attainment Challenge

Meeting date: 27 September 2023

Jenny Gilruth

I think that that relates to the local government pay deal as opposed to the teachers’ pay deal.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny and the Scottish Attainment Challenge

Meeting date: 27 September 2023

Jenny Gilruth

Yes. Pam Duncan-Glancy has raised a really important point. Obviously, negotiations are on-going and I am not involved in them, but I am very clear that there must not be detriment to schools, which the member alluded to in relation to those negotiations. The funding was promised on a four-year cycle. It must come to schools and directly to headteachers, who have the power to make a difference in their school setting.

In relation to my responsibilities as Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills, I reassure Pam Duncan-Glancy that longer-term planning in relation to the funding is vital, and it is why PEF is making a difference right now in our schools. There not being detriment to the levels of funding that are available at school level is absolutely imperative, in my view.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny and the Scottish Attainment Challenge

Meeting date: 27 September 2023

Jenny Gilruth

Including in this financial year? Absolutely.