Chamber and committees

That is the measure that we have used for allocations for a number of years. We have, in the past, used it in relation to eligibility for other things as well. In the future, given that we are moving towards universality at primary school level, we will have to consider a different model. Universality necessitates a shift away from it. I am not going to argue about whether it is the best way to measure it. It is the measure that we have used, but we will have to use a different one in the future. The approach will look different because of the universal approach in primary schools.

Good morning. I am delighted to be here in my first appearance as cabinet secretary at the Education, Children and Young People Committee. I thank you for the invitation—it is nice to be back, although I am sitting in a different chair from when I was last at the committee.

I look forward very much to working constructively with members of the committee. I have met Opposition leads over the past few months, and I look forward to continued engagement with the committee.

I will start by stating the obvious. Some, although not all, of our schools are closed today as a result of industrial action. Although the workers who are involved are local government employees and it is not an education dispute, it would be remiss of me not to mention the impact that school closures have already had, and continue to have, on education this week. Although I respect the fact that the matter remains a negotiation between local authorities and unions, I recognise that the people who are involved are continuing negotiations in the hope that a resolution can be found swiftly. Although I am not involved in negotiations, I have been working closely with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to ensure that disruption to learning and teaching as a result of industrial action is minimised.

The clear expectation from the Scottish Government and COSLA is that schools will be closed only when it is safe or practicable not to open them. The educational needs of our young people must continue to be met locally, where our schools are closed.

I am grateful to the committee for its inquiry into the Scottish attainment challenge and the comprehensive report that it published in August last year. The Government’s response was equally comprehensive, and we share a focus on improving outcomes for children and young people who are experiencing poverty.

Progress is being made. The poverty-related attainment gap remains narrower than it was pre-pandemic for national 5s, highers and advanced highers. We have seen good progress in primary school literacy and numeracy, and a record low gap in respect of positive destinations for school leavers nine months after leaving school.

All of that, along with the ambitious aims that local authorities have set and are setting for the longer term, gives me confidence that our £1 billion investment in the Scottish attainment challenge is having an impact.

At the same time, we all acknowledge the impacts of the pandemic and the current cost of living crisis, which have deepened inequality.

The Government is maintaining our commitment to a relentless focus on closing the poverty-related attainment gap and on working closely with our councils, while recognising their responsibilities.

I understand that the committee would welcome an update on the relationships and behaviour summits. In June, I convened a headteachers task force to consider school exclusions. As I explained in my letter to the committee in August, there are multiple strands to the summits, with events in September, October and November. That ensures engagement with a wide range of stakeholders and enables the summit process to be informed by the evidence from the behaviour in Scottish schools research, which we will publish in November. I chaired the summit in September on recording and monitoring incidents in schools, and I look forward to engaging in future summits. To that end, I will continue to keep the committee updated.

There is much to be positive about in Scottish education. We have the lowest pupil teacher ratio, the highest spend per pupil and the best-paid teachers in the United Kingdom. We continue to celebrate and support free tuition in higher education, and this year’s exam results have shown continued progress in closing the poverty-related attainment gap.

There are always opportunities to improve—I accept that—but the way in which we, as politicians, engage with the substantive issues of the day in education is, arguably, not like our engagement with any other policy area in Government. As the committee will know, I was a teacher before I was a politician, and the actions that I take as cabinet secretary will undoubtedly be informed by my experience at the chalkface.

I believe that this committee has one of the most important roles in the Scottish Parliament—not only in holding the Government to account, but in driving the improvements that we need in our education system. That is what will improve outcomes for our young people, so I am committed to working with the committee on that endeavour.

I thank you for having me along this morning, convener. I am happy to take any questions.

This situation is different. The way in which teachers are paid is different from how those in our college sector are paid. The Scottish Negotiating Committee for Teachers has a key role to play in the tripartite arrangements on teachers’ pay. The college sector has always been different. If Mr Rennie’s argument is that we should establish an SNCT approach to the college sector, I would like to hear it. There would be real challenges in doing so.

The challenges in the college sector predate my time in office and go back a number of years. It is important that we work with our trade union partners on establishing positive working relationships. I recently met representatives of the Educational Institute of Scotland and I have also met those from College Employers Scotland. I know that Mr Dey continues to engage with our trade unions.

I recognise the concern here, but it is important that we get to a settlement. That is a matter for College Employers Scotland to deliver on; it is not for ministers to intervene in.

I cannot apply the—

I think that there are plans to include childminders in the process. As I intimated in my response to Mr Rennie, childminders are crucial to delivering our expansion of childcare. Much as we cannot do that without the PVI sector, childminders are essential in certain parts of Scotland—for example, in more rural locations—where families might not have access to the same provision from the local authority or the PVI sector. My understanding is that childminders will be included, unless Eleanor Passmore is going to correct me on that point.

If members want to ask about that later, I will pause there.

The Scottish Government does not support a compulsory redundancy policy, and that is the view that we take across our executive agencies. Colleges, however, do not sit in that space. The suggestion that that money might have been used to protect a voluntary redundancy policy was not something that came across my desk and was certainly not part of the consideration of how we were going to use it.

The funding is being used to support the teachers’ pay deal. I think that members will be aware of that—they will have heard Mr Dey say so earlier this year—and we need to recognise that funding for that pay deal had to come from somewhere in the education budget. The education secretary prior to my appointment made that message very clear.

I am not familiar with the point that the member makes about voluntary redundancies. I recognise that there are challenges in the sector with regard to redundancies and industrial action, and we need to work with the sector. I have engaged with the trade unions on that and with College Employers Scotland.

Stephen Pathirana might wish to say more on transition funding per se. My understanding is that it was to be transition funding and that it was not predicated on staff employment.

I think that it absolutely should allow them to do that. I point out, however, that that goes back to the Verity house agreement, and COSLA has a clear role to play in that regard. Of course, provision should be accessible to parents where they need it at the current time. Those boundaries, or borders, should not preclude parents from accessing childcare where they need it, and I recognise some of the challenges in that regard at present. That is why the engagement with COSLA on the issue as part of the Verity house agreement is hugely important.

The convener raises important points on closing the attainment gap and attendance, an issue that has concerned me since my appointment at the end of March. We have seen a narrowing of the gap since 2019; the most recent exam results from this academic year show that. It is important that we compare this academic year with 2019 as the closest possible barometer of comparison, given that, during the pandemic, the Scottish Qualifications Authority removed the normal course requirements for qualifications and replaced them with a different measure, using teacher judgment, which I know the committee will be familiar with. Our closest barometer of measurement is 2019, and the comparison shows that we are making progress in closing the gap in relation to exam results.

The achievement of curriculum for excellence levels data on literacy and numeracy in primary 7 showed last December the biggest amount of progress that we have seen since records began. The most up-to-date data on ACEL for primary 7 will be published in December, and the committee will want to look closely at that—as I certainly will.

On issues surrounding attendance more broadly, I receive fortnightly updates on the national picture of attendance, and they concern me. Members will have heard me say in the chamber that certain year groups seem to have challenges in relation to their school attendance. It appears to me that those are the year groups that went through a transitional period in their education during the pandemic. Whether that was, for example, pupils in primary 7 or those in secondary 3, there are gaps in attendance in certain year groups.

To that end, I have asked Education Scotland to look at the issue in more depth and provide me with further advice, which will be forthcoming later in the month. I would be happy to share that advice and any recommendations with the committee, recognising that managing attendance is a matter for local authorities. I know that some local authorities use their PEF to improve attendance and attainment, for which it can be a valuable tool, but, aside from that, local authorities have a responsibility in relation to attendance.

I was very worried after some of my school visits, because I heard about care-experienced young people not attending school because of their experiences during the pandemic. It concerns me that those young people are not attending and that, as a result, their educational needs might not be being met.

We need to be mindful—as, I know, the committee is—of the impacts of the pandemic on schools. Those impacts did not just disappear after the last lockdown. They changed behaviour, the way in which our young people interact with the education system and the way in which parents engage with teachers. We need to be mindful of that and sensitive to it, particularly in relation to attendance.

As the cabinet secretary, I am fearful that a cohort of young people have had their education disrupted by Covid and by industrial action. We need to engage those young people fully in their education to improve their outcomes, which is why improving attendance is key.

Absolutely, convener. I am being reminded that Liz Sommerville from Education Scotland is here. I will bring in Liz, who is working on the deep dive that Education Scotland is preparing. The work on engaging the college sector in our schools, to which you allude, is fundamental to providing different pathways for young people and getting them to re-engage with the education system if there has been disengagement due to the pandemic and an impact on attendance.