Chamber and committees

I may have to defer to officials on that. Education has to play its role in our providing a clear route in terms of the savings that are required, and that is challenging.

Referring to the convener’s point on this, I would reflect that the colleges sector has more than played its role in that regard in recent years. I have of course been making these points in discussion with colleagues. We need to be mindful about not starting on a level playing field, particularly in the college sector, where there have been staff reductions in recent years. I am very aware that we need a more targeted approach to how the measures might be delivered.

Clare Hicks may wish to come in with a specific number.

I have already given a commitment to write to the committee, so we will assemble a list and make sure that we provide you with a fuller update. It is worth rehearsing again Clare Hicks’s point that those discussions remain on-going in relation to the substantive number that Mr Briggs is seeking.

10:15

We need to track back to the points that I made earlier. We are talking about the start of 2022. The Liz Truss mini-budget was in September 2022. We need to be mindful that we set out a trajectory, and then a number of incidents happened, not least involving a former leader of your party, convener, which affected inflationary rates across the United Kingdom. All our mortgages are going up, things are much more expensive now than they used to be, and there is less money to spend on capital projects because of those inflationary pressures. I am sure that those things have had an impact on our plans.

I see that Shirley Laing would like to come in on the substantive point.

I thought you were saying four years from today, so I traced that time back. However, it is important to note that the impacts of that mini-budget continue.

As I understand it, yes.

No. I am not sure that I share Mr Rennie’s description of “excuses”. Had it been the case that I was not keen to advance that work, I would not have come forward with the proposals that I set out. I did that quite deliberately and publicly, so that teachers could hear my views about how they could be delivered.

We have noted that issues have arisen that perhaps we would not have accounted for in 2021, not least the exponential increase in teacher wages, which means that Scotland’s teachers are now the best paid on these islands and continue to be well paid. Increasing their wages was the right thing to do, but it has meant that there is less money for other things.

11:15

We also protected funding in the budget for reducing class contact time. As Mr Rennie will be aware, we created a pot of funding to protect teacher numbers, which, I think, goes back to Ms Somerville’s time as cabinet secretary. That was enhanced last year, in line with inflation. We have maintained that approach this year.

Our independent modelling, which was carried out in 2023, said that, if we went back to 2023 teacher numbers, we would have enough teacher numbers to reduce class contact time in primary schools, and we could progress to secondary provision thereafter. That is why that funding was attached to that.

We are of the view that we have capacity in the system to do that at the current time. The issue in relation to how we resolve the dispute concerns the use of the time. As Mr Rennie knows, the EIS has a clear view on how that time should be split. We are trying to find a route forward via the SNCT to avert industrial action because we do not believe—I certainly do not believe—that that is in anyone’s interest.

Absolutely.

It will look different in different schools. In the primary school sector, it will look different.

I was listening—

—Scotland’s teachers are very well paid because of the way in which negotiations have been taken forward in Scotland. I respect that, and I respect the trade unions’ approach. That has meant that, every year since 2021, we have had an overt focus on pay claims, which we have had to respond to. I have had to find money for that from the budget. You heard from Mr Greer about where some of that has come from. That has meant that some pretty tough choices have had to be made, and that the pace of change in relation to reducing class contact time is not what it should have been.

It is not a position that I am happy to be in, Mr Rennie, to give you my own view on that. I had hoped that we would have been able to move forward on this before now. However, this is not just about the Government. If it were, perhaps we might have moved more quickly. Mr Rennie might not believe me on that, but if it were just about the Government, I would accept the full-square blame that he lays at my door. However, he knows that I need the unions and local government to agree to this, and that is not where we are with the SNCT.

Those are forecasts. As we all know, there will be an election in fairly short order. Mr O’Kane talked about in-year revisions—as a Government, we are keen to avoid that. I do not know whether he has aspirations about joining the Government himself and revisiting the budget, and whether that is why he talks in those terms—