Chamber and committees

Thank you for the question. Yes, I do feel that. The feedback from Bill Scott to the committee on 16 December, on the difference that the local delivery teams have made in delivery of CDP and in helping people to make their applications, was powerful. It will be the same for the adult disability payment. The pandemic and the restrictions have, of course, had an impact on, for example, local delivery teams offering face-to-face assistance in community settings or people’s homes. However as restrictions ease, those things will have more prominence. Local delivery teams being within local authorities is making an impact when people apply; it is a significant improvement that has been introduced in the Scottish social security system and it is making a positive difference in communities.

We have prioritised awards to clients who are between 15 and a half and 18 and are transferring from child disability payment to adult disability payment in order that we can ensure that they will be receiving child disability payments and can be supported by Social Security Scotland when it is time for them to transition. That minimises the need for people who require an appointee on turning 16 to have to go through two appointee processes—one with the DWP and another with SSS—when their awards are transferred. We also decided to prioritise people who meet the special rules for terminal illness in order to ensure that they can avail themselves of our more generous eligibility rules as soon as possible.

We are still working with the DWP to determine how we will prioritise the awards of clients who are under 15 and a half, but we will do so in a way that best minimises the biggest impacts for those who are staying within the DWP system. I hope that that is helpful.

I do not want to be definitive and say that it has never come up, but it was not a point of negotiation, because in order to deliver the adult disability payment safely and securely, the discussions had to take place prior to my appointment. The engagement around the adult disability payment has been on-going for some time. Its introduction was unfortunately delayed due to the pandemic, because the DWP had to reprioritise resources, and the Scottish Government and Scotland as a whole had to deal with the pandemic situation. The decisions were part of considerations, negotiations and discussions in the past period.

The child disability payment, which is already in place, is a significant move and a change that has already been undertaken. As I said, as younger people in the child disability payment system reach the age of 16 and in that period between the age of 16 and 18, there will be significantly improved support and awareness of how they go through the process of applying for the adult disability payment.

I will bring in Janet Richardson to talk about that from the agency side, but the Government is in a healthy place in relation to the promotion of our benefits more widely. We have had collective discussions with the committee and the Parliament on the importance of the benefit take-up strategy and using all communication methods and networks to raise awareness of the social security support that is available. However, there is always more that we can do. When the adult disability payment is launched—if Parliament chooses to pass the regulations, as I hope it will—that will be another opportunity for us all, in every constituency and region, to promote the new benefit and encourage people to apply for the support if they need it and are entitled to it, because we want them to get it.

That is an important question. I thank you for the important words about where we are with the adult disability payment.

The question was about how we keep an eye on rising costs that need to be paid alongside the duty to take up and promote ADP and other benefits. Fellow ministers and I are absolutely clear that social security is a human right and are, therefore, committed to ensuring that everyone who is entitled to support from our system can receive it.

Our “Social Security (Scotland) Act 2018: Benefit Take-up Strategy—October 2021” details how we will encourage and support people to overcome barriers to accessing support. Of course, we have a duty to promote take-up regardless of how much is being spent on the adult disability payment. That duty is in the Social Security (Scotland) Act 2018.

Many of the improvements that we are making to the application and decision-making processes are intended to remove barriers to applying for disability benefits that currently exist in the system. We will promote and make the process more accessible. We will make it more straightforward and we will help people on their journeys, through our advocacy service and through our local delivery teams.

There is a real shift in consciousness from the approach of the Department for Work and Pensions and experiences that people have had, in respect of benefits having previously attracted a completely unjust and unethical stigma that we all need now to knock away. We want to remove stigma and we want to promote take-up. We want to encourage people to get the support that they need, because a social security system that exists to support people, that is accessible and that is delivering is good. It is good not just for the person who receives the award to which they are entitled, but for society as a whole, as we create a fairer society together. It is also good in relation to distribution in the economy—the fiscal impact and multiplier effect that it can have on the economy.

That is not the most important thing, though. The most important thing is that people get the support that they are entitled to, so we are very committed—I hope that you feel that from what I have said—to encouraging people and helping people to get that support.

Again, I will try to respond to as many of those questions as I can. If Pam Duncan-Glancy wants to raise at the end of my remarks any questions on subjects that I have not managed to cover, I will be happy to have them re-posed.

I have to challenge the question about picking up the pace, because I think that it is extremely unfair, given the delivery and what the agency is undertaking. It lacks appreciation of the situation that we have been in with the pandemic and the fact that we are in a hybrid system where we have to deliver the new benefits, which requires significant engagement with the DWP, but also undertake case transfer.

I appreciate the evidence that the committee has heard. I listened carefully to what Bill Scott and others said. I had significant respect for him throughout my time on the committee. However, the pace of what Social Security Scotland has delivered has been remarkable. We have a really strong agency that is performing, and it has delivered well. In the Scottish child payment, it has delivered a new benefit that was not expected. The payment was created by the Scottish Government and delivered by the agency in a very short period, and I know that the Parliament strongly supports it. We will double the payment from April and we are working towards rolling it out for under-16s from the end of this year, provided that we get the data from the DWP.

I think that talking the achievement of Social Security Scotland down does no good for the collective determination that I know exists in the committee and across the Parliament for the agency to be a success. The agency is delivering strongly and it will deliver the adult disability payment strongly as well. We can all be ambitious and want to do more, but we also need to be realistic about what can be achieved in the dual process in which we have to undertake case transfer as quickly as we can.

Building a new agency and delivering a new service in the way that we have done is an extremely complex process that involves building information technology infrastructure, transferring data, engagement between two Governments, making sure that we adhere to all the legislative requirements, making sure that we have all the checks and balances in place, and making sure that we have all the people in place. It is a significant exercise. The reason why Social Security Scotland and the Scottish Government directorate have recently won awards for their achievements is that remarkable progress has been made in the delivery of Social Security Scotland, and the adult disability payment is a significant and key next step.

I will bring in Nathan Gale to talk about the fact that the changes that we are making will make a significant difference and are not just cosmetic. First, however, I will touch on some points about case transfer, because I know that there is significant interest in that, and understandably so. Members will be aware from my letter yesterday that the case transfer process is such that those who will be approaching a reassessment will be prioritised. A PIP reassessment will be prioritised so that they are naturally case transferred into our system. We cannot consider cases retrospectively, because the adult disability payment did not exist when people were reassessed for PIP in months or years past. Of course, if people want to make an application for the adult disability payment when it is rolled out, they will be absolutely entitled to do that.

Pam Duncan-Glancy asked, rightly, whether there will be a campaign to promote the adult disability payment. As members know, through our benefit take-up strategy and our various initiatives, we continuously promote people applying for all the benefits that they are entitled to. One of the key differences in the Scottish social security system is that we want people to get the benefits that they are entitled to. We are proactively promoting the take-up of benefits because we believe that social security is a human right, that it is a collective investment in ourselves and one another, and that it benefits us all by building a fairer society for everyone. We will continue to be proactive in encouraging people to apply.

I would be grateful if Nathan Gale could make some points on the significant changes that we are making.

We have selected for the first pilot the same areas as we used for the child disability payment, because they represent a mixture of urban and rural geography. Using the same local authorities for phase 1 of the pilot for adult disability payment enables us to build on the working relationships and constructive engagement that we have had with Perth and Kinross, Dundee and the Western Isles local authorities.

I should put on the record that we are incredibly grateful for all the engagement that we have had with local authorities, health boards and others on delivery of the adult disability payment and all our benefits.

After phase 1, of course, the phases of the adult disability payment will include significantly more local authority areas. We have created the programme in a way that considers geographical spread and builds on our commitment to delivering things safely and securely, and to making sure that we continue to build the system up. When it all happens at the end of August, we will have undertaken a significant amount of work, with local authorities being engaged in the system already and our being in a strong position to roll out the service nationally.

Just for clarity, I presume that Mr Briggs is talking about local delivery teams, which of course are active now. They are operating in community hubs and, with due consideration of the recent pandemic restrictions, they have already been giving clients face-to-face assistance for CDP, and they stand ready to that for ADP.

I will bring Janet Richardson in, in a moment, to talk about the agency perspective, but I emphasise that the local delivery team service is already up and running. Janet, could you elaborate further, please?

That is an important point to raise. I know from the committee’s evidence on 16 December 2021 and from correspondence that I sent to the committee that you will be aware that SCOSS supports the position that we have taken.

After significant engagement with the Scottish Government and thorough consideration of the issues—we were very grateful for the important engagement that we had with the body—SCOSS endorsed our overriding commitment to safe and secure transfer by stating that:

“We are persuaded that changing eligibility criteria at this time would risk undermining the delivery of ADP, with extremely detrimental consequences for people who depend on it.”

We are also mindful that DACBEAG has stated that:

“In the short term, we agree that no significant changes should be made to eligibility rules to ensure a safe and secure transition”.

We have engaged with those that you would expect us to on that important issue, and we are reassured, comforted and grateful that they share our position.

Collectively, in time—not just in the short term through the delivery of ADP and all the significant improvements that I laid out earlier, but in the years thereafter once case transfer has been undertaken—we all want to improve the situation for disabled people as much as we can. I think it important that we undertake the process of case transfer and launch in the way that is envisaged in the regulations, to make sure that we deliver the adult disability payment better than the way in which PIP is delivered, in terms of experience and approach, and I have laid that out through the important changes that we are making. Then, after safe and secure transfer, we can consider where we go next with the benefit.

The changes that we are making, particularly on applying the reliability criteria properly, will make a significant difference for people, and the experience of the adult disability payment will be much improved, just like is the case on the child disability payment. The feedback to the Scottish Government and Social Security Scotland of people’s experience of that different system and approach to that which they had experienced previously from DWP has been very positive.

I will try to be as succinct as possible.

We discussed those issues when I brought previous regulations to the committee on 28 October. Although CDP and ADP are both types of assistance, they are different types of assistance, because the eligibility criteria are different and reflect the difference in the daily needs of and support for adults and children. The needs of disabled children can change as they age and grow. Up to the age of 16, one of the deciding factors is what a child’s needs are compared with a child of the same age who is not disabled. The criteria for adult disability payment are more complex and assess the individual’s ability to carry out a defined set of necessary daily living and mobility activities safely, to an acceptable standard, repeatedly and within a reasonable time period.

If we were to treat the process as a transfer from one form of disability assistance to another, the information held by Social Security Scotland about a CDP award would likely not be sufficient to make a decision on entitlement to adult disability payment for many clients. The person would therefore need to provide further supporting information and potentially would be required to make an application for adult disability payment. It is therefore in the best interests of young people on child disability payment to make an application for adult disability payment.

Extensive support and advice will be available to young people and their families undergoing the process, through a choice of channels. We are committed to making the process as smooth as possible, with no gap in payment, to ensure that it will be less disruptive than the current system. SCOSS has welcomed the changes and has commented that they are likely to strengthen the rights of clients who undergo the process.

I thank all members for their summing-up remarks. I listened attentively and with respect and good faith to all the points that have been made. I am grateful for and very much welcome the cross-party support. I appreciate the points that have been made by the Opposition parties, and I acknowledge their determination to see further change in the way that they wish to see it.

As I respect that, I ask them to respect this. We are in a hybrid system. We are undertaking two very important workstreams, launching the new benefit and undertaking case transfer. In that process, we have to ensure sure that we do not create a two-tier system. We have to undertake safe and secure delivery and have passporting agreements in place with the Department for Work and Pensions

Just as I ask members to respect the reality of the situation in the here and now, and although I appreciate their wish to see further change, I also ask that they acknowledge the changes that have been made to ensure that we provide the right reliability criteria consistently and properly in each case. We made changes to the application process so that it is more accessible and a better experience for people. We have made changes for people with a terminal illness, and changes to the assessment process so that there is no private sector involvement, no DWP-style assessments, no functional examinations, and the other changes that I have laid out in the course of the meeting.

This is a really important moment in the development of devolution and the delivery of our new social security system. By agreeing to the regulations, we are taking an important step, collectively, for the benefit of all our constituents, and also in creating a strong, robust, passionate, organised and structured system to deliver for people in our communities in the years ahead, with a strong foundation for further delivery in the years and decades to come.

I am grateful to colleagues for indicating their support for the regulations. I look forward to working with them as we progress into the next phase of delivering the adult disability payment and continuing to build our social security system here in Scotland.