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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 4 November 2025
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Displaying 1001 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Performance Framework: Ambitions into Action

Meeting date: 24 May 2022

Daniel Johnson

I will bring somebody else in but, in some ways—and I hope that this is not unfair—you are giving us a glass-half-full version of what is going on. If I could paraphrase, I think that you are saying that having the national performance framework is incredibly useful, but you are talking about how it should be working, rather than how it is. Would that be fair?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Performance Framework: Ambitions into Action

Meeting date: 24 May 2022

Daniel Johnson

I want to bring Jamie Livingstone in, because I was interested to see that the Oxfam Scotland submission referenced what Germany did. That was refreshing, because we are lucky if we get an example from somewhere else in the United Kingdom, so it is good to get one from another country. I noted from your evidence that one of the key insights is that there was popular participation in generating the framework In Germany. Could you step us through that and also tell us whether there are similar structures there to ensure that, once the framework is developed, it is applied and there is a plan to use it? In a sense, what Vicki Bibby is articulating—certainly, it is what we are articulating—is that the framework is there but there is no real plan or structure to use it. Are you able to bring in any examples from Germany or elsewhere?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Performance Framework: Ambitions into Action

Meeting date: 24 May 2022

Daniel Johnson

Exactly.

Lots of issues go with that, but do you agree with that point? If so, what have we lost along the way? If you wanted to revitalise the national performance framework, what would you revive from what was done 15 years ago? Should it be put into plainer language? Are there lessons that we learned back then that we have forgotten?

10:15  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Budget (Website)

Meeting date: 17 May 2022

Daniel Johnson

There are two primary issues. One is transparency about up-front decision making. The second is the amount of information that was provided by the project on an ongoing basis.

Mr Carlaw, neither of us is a website developer, but we are both businesspeople. In business, if you have undertakings with multiyear obligations it is a good idea—indeed, if you are a large business, it is a requirement—to specify those adequately on your profit and loss account. In the 2017-18 budget submission from the SPCB, the only indication that the Parliament was undertaking a £3 million website contract is a little line in schedule 3, which is the description against IT digital services projects. It reads as follows:

“Information Technology/Digital Change projects include rolling out the MSP case management system to more MSPs and their staff; delivering a new Parliament website and intranet”—

that is fair enough—

“software (Windows 10 and Office 365) and hardware upgrades for SPS staff; replacing the Parliament telephone system”.

What in those lines would have alerted our predecessor committee to the fact that the Parliament was undertaking a significant website contract? That fact is pretty hidden, is it not?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Budget (Website)

Meeting date: 17 May 2022

Daniel Johnson

Can you clarify something for me? On the basis of that answer, I am still not clear about why you took the decision to deliver the project using third-party contractors rather than a single contract. Surely, that is inherently more complicated to manage. You acknowledged that there was not the expertise in-house to build the website. Was there expertise in-house to manage the variety and number of contractors that you have clearly been employing?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Budget (Website)

Meeting date: 17 May 2022

Daniel Johnson

However, there was no real indication in the lines in schedule 3 that there was a three-year, £3 million undertaking, was there? Do you think that that was sufficiently transparent in terms of the level of detail that was provided, given the significance and scale of the website project?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Budget (Website)

Meeting date: 17 May 2022

Daniel Johnson

I appreciate that acknowledgement. I suggest that £3 million as a percentage of a £100 million budget would warrant further—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Performance Framework: Ambitions into Action

Meeting date: 17 May 2022

Daniel Johnson

Ms Wallace, I was struck by your written submission, in which you said that the processes for implementing the national outcomes are “weak”. Ultimately, are we dancing around the issue? It is good to talk about processes and about agencies, but does it not come down to individuals? Do we need to put people on the spot and make them accountable for delivering things? In our conversations, there is a sense that how individuals and agencies elect to play their part in the national framework is almost voluntary. Do we need cabinet secretaries, ministers, directorates and agencies to report against the framework? Should we make that much more explicit?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Performance Framework: Ambitions into Action

Meeting date: 17 May 2022

Daniel Johnson

Thank you very much. My understanding of the matter is considerably decluttered from when we started.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Performance Framework: Ambitions into Action

Meeting date: 17 May 2022

Daniel Johnson

Is that where an agreement might come into play so that, rather than an outcome or area just being assigned to an individual, there would be agreements that explained the contribution to it?