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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 5 May 2025
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Displaying 764 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Daniel Johnson

Minister, you have been at pains to point out that, in essence, the detail of service delivery will be subject to the co-design phase. Fine—let us park that for a moment.

Can I raise some points of clarification? You said at the beginning that the point and purpose of the bill was standardisation and accountability. For clarity’s sake, it is not just about those two elements, is it? It is also about commissioning, rather importantly. The purpose of the bill is to set up the national apparatus to make possible, and to nationalise, centralised commissioning. Is that correct?

Secondly, you are saying that, notwithstanding the points around what costs may arise from service delivery or additional services, the costs for setting up that national apparatus are all contained in the financial memorandum.

Are those points correct?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Daniel Johnson

Okay—correct me.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Daniel Johnson

I am sorry if people thought that I was putting words in the minister’s mouth. I believe that the words that the minister used were that he “could not conceive of a situation where there would be more care boards than IJBs.” I was merely making the inference that—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Daniel Johnson

I was not getting at cost overruns. Without plucking numbers out of the air, I was just giving what I thought were fair and recent comparators.

Coming up a layer, will IT be an important element and is it likely to be a substantial cost component of what is finally delivered?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Daniel Johnson

Looking at the overall business case, we are talking about a set-up cost for the national apparatus of £500 million-plus. At the moment, that does not include IT or a number of other items. Will that cost be recouped in benefits? Currently, £7 billion is spent on social care and £8.9 billion on community health. Will this drive benefits and efficiency on the current footprint, excluding improvements or increases in the standards of care? In terms of the as-is—the baseline business case—will that cost be recouped, or will it be additional? Do you expect costs to go up or down on the basis of the planned investment?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Daniel Johnson

Why not?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Daniel Johnson

In the interests of time, I was really just asking for brief confirmations of my assumptions. I understand the different words, but I do not think that I was suggesting anything different. If it is not about centralised commissioning, can you conceive of a situation in which there will be more commissioning boards than the current number of IJBs, or are you clear that there will be fewer?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Daniel Johnson

That brings us back to the process. Answer this for me, minister, because I really do not understand it. I can understand why you might not want to legislate for service delivery prior to having the framework in place. That bit makes sense.

However, what would have prevented you from doing the co-design work and bringing forward a white paper, and then bringing forward the framework bill, with that white paper clearly in mind? That would have enabled you to do the co-design and answered many of the questions that we have in front of us, and it would have given us certainty about the scope. Right now, we do not even know—because the co-design work has not been done—what functions the national apparatus will need to facilitate. Why not do it the other way round? Why not do the co-design work and bring forward a white paper, and use that as the basis, and the context, for the framework bill? I do not understand why you did not do it that way round.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Daniel Johnson

I will leave it there, convener.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Daniel Johnson

Minister, you said that, in essence, there is transparency because people can contact you or your officials. I want to clarify that. We have to go on what is a matter of public record and, although I accept that that is a valuable element of scrutiny for us, public scrutiny and accountability are critical, too. Do you accept that, if people need to make direct contact—which I assume that the public cannot—the committee can go on only what is a matter of public record? We cannot rely on private conversations, such as the one that the Fraser of Allander Institute has had to rely on.