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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 8 May 2025
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Displaying 775 contributions

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Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

I was going to come to that.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

As an aside, I will say that that is an incredibly helpful insight for the member’s bill that I am in the process of drafting, so thank you very much.

Do you have a view on the frequency of the use of Henry VIII powers and secondary powers? Is it going up, or is it about the same? Are there differences in the approach that you see, especially given your 25 years of experience?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

In essence, you are saying that it is more important to look at the scope and effect of what is being legislated for, rather than the number of particular instances or clauses, because then you are just counting—

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

That is really helpful. On a side note, it is always interesting to look at how the machinery of the UK Government interacts with that of devolved Governments, so having people at that interface is useful.

You have both stated a number of times that the goal is to provide clear and understandable legislation. I have two specific questions on that. I note that the OPC has drafting guidance. First, how is that set out? Secondly, we heard from the previous witnesses that, when legislation sets out powers in secondary legislation, it is sometimes not at all clear what ministers will do with those powers. Are such scenarios caught in the guidance or your broader practice? Is there a point at which you say, “We cannot tell what this legislation is going to do. Is this the right thing to do in terms of setting it and framing it in secondary legislation?”

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

Have you noticed anything different in the approach to and practice in drafting, specifically with regard to secondary legislation and legislative powers?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

This has been an excellent discussion. The observation was made that making a hard distinction between things that are framework bills and things that are not is not as helpful as thinking about how powers are framed. Also, this is as much about practice and culture as it is about drafting. Those are my takeaways. I am really grateful to the witnesses for their contributions.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

That brings me neatly on to my substantive questions. I want to look at the practical changes that we could bring into parliamentary procedure around framework legislation as a whole. As the panel has observed, it is better to think about the provisions in legislation and the powers that could be conferred on the executive, rather than trying to decide whether the legislation as a whole is over the line or not.

I was very interested in one proposal in the written submissions that we got, which was about having some sort of written agreement or guidance between the legislature and the executive. I think that both Dr Grez Hidalgo and Dr Fox had similar proposals in their submissions. Dr Fox described it as being a “Concordat on Legislative Delegation”. Will you explain what features that should have? Would that contain the principles that I alluded to in my earlier supplementary question? What did the Hansard Society have in mind when it made that proposal?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

I was planning to address that issue separately because I know that there are witnesses at this meeting who disagree with the power to amend because of the consequential effects that it might have. I am interested in hearing witnesses’ views on whether sifting, more evidence taking and the possibility of amending would be sensible procedural changes to the way that secondary legislation is examined.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

I suppose that my response is that the Pandora’s box has already been opened and there is a lot of legislation out there, so we need to deal with how Governments use it.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

I agree. I will finish with this point, which was alluded to earlier. One of the interesting tests for a minister who is presenting legislation is whether, if a Government with a very different viewpoint was elected at the next election, it could use the legislation to do something that was very different from or even contrary to what was intended. Is that a relevant consideration here? Yes or no answers would be instructive.

I take it from the nods round the table that there is agreement on that, so I will hand back to the convener.