Chamber and committees

A quality job that pays well is one of the primary routes out of poverty. Will the minister outline what action the Scottish Government and partners are taking to ensure that all sizes of companies in my constituency are able to contribute to tackling inequality while growing their businesses?

Preventative action is crucial in order to tackle this issue. I note that £2 million was provided to support prevention activity in 2022-23. Will the cabinet secretary outline what projects the Scottish Government is supporting to deliver that?

The scale and complexity of tackling online child abuse, grooming and exploitation feels entirely overwhelming. It is a difficult thing to think and talk about, but it is an issue that must be out in the open. I thank the Criminal Justice Committee for introducing the debate and I am also grateful to all the witnesses who contributed to its discussions. Although I was not at the round tables, I have read the transcripts of the meetings and found them informative.

This subject is complicated and vast, so I intend to remark on three things that stood out for me: children and what adults might term the online world; the impact of pornography; and the role of tech companies in the law.

For children, there is no such thing as the online world. No differentiation exists between the online and real worlds for our children and young people—they are the same place. That is a fact that we middle-aged policy makers and legislators who were lucky to have a childhood free from the internet absolutely have to get our heads around if we want to make a difference.

During the round table, Stuart Allardyce of Stop It Now! Scotland remarked that there is

“an assumption that those involved in online offending are motivated paedophilic serial offenders.”

However, the organisation’s current understanding is that there are

“different pathways that lead to such behaviour”

and that there is

“a shift towards more transgressive and ... illegal material over time”,

with

“those ... who often view large amounts of legal pornography initially”

shifting

“towards more illegal materials.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 31 May 2023; c 27.]

That being the case, there is, as the convener has stated, obviously huge scope for preventative work to happen. Awareness needs to be raised and action taken promptly.

The statistics that Stuart Allardyce quoted about the percentage of males who had looked at illegal images of children were shocking—indeed, they were pretty gut-wrenching. There is obviously a much wider debate to be had around pornography in relation to tackling commercial sexual exploitation and trafficking, but that is perhaps for another day. However, the situation that Stop It Now! Scotland articulated provides a stark illustration of one of the many potential serious harms to individuals and society as a whole. It is crucial that men who are concerned about their behaviour know that they can do something about it and that help is out there.

I recently read a very interesting article by a playwright called Abbey Wright. She had spoken with 10,000 children—in a child-friendly way and not, as she said, using the P word—about the impact of pornography on their lives. She found that children as young as six are encountering pornography. For nine to 11-year-olds, exposure to pornography is frequent. She also met a boy of 12 who was dealing with a pornography addiction and she found that, across the board, pornography is confusing the issue of consent. We will have to be cognisant of those uncomfortable truths as parents, teachers and legislators, and in any discussions about the quality and content of relationship, sexual health and parenthood education.

Another finding of note was that children and young people were using pornography to plug the gaps in their education, which is concerning for the obvious reasons of the violence and lack of consent depicted in much pornography. Also, really importantly, it reflects just how important inclusive approaches are, where children and young people can see themselves reflected in what they are taught.

I hope that the UK Online Safety Bill will go some way to making children safer online, with the commitment to make age-verification measures compulsory for pornography sites and social media. That is very welcome. I would, however, join Barnardo’s and others in asking for those measures to be put in place as soon and as robustly as possible, to help to protect children from viewing pornographic content.

There is further work required in that regard to keep children safe. We need to ensure that the parity of regulation between online and offline content exists, and age and identity checks have to be there for anyone appearing in pornographic content online. It is critical that those two issues be dealt with if children are to be kept safe from exploitation online.

Online platforms should be held liable for content that is non-consensual or depicts anyone under 18. As Pauline McNeill said, children on both sides of the camera—those able to watch and those forced or coerced into participating—need to be protected with robust regulation and enforcement.

Age verification and consent are part of the terms of service for financial institutions and credit card companies. It was reported that, when Mastercard stopped processing payments for Pornhub due to concerns over age verification and consent, almost two thirds of the content on that site was removed.

Tech companies can and must do more to keep everyone, but particularly children and young people, safe while on their platforms, and where they do not our Governments must step in.

Maybe we can move on to reflections from ADES. Does Carrie Lindsay or Douglas Hutchison want to come in?

Thank you and good morning.

I would like to talk about teaching and other staffing costs. Kirsty Flanagan mentioned protecting teacher numbers. We have spoken before in the committee about the situation in which pupil rolls are falling in some local authority areas, yet they are expected to maintain teacher numbers. My local authority has also lost attainment challenge funding, which adds additional pressure. Can you speak a little bit about the opportunity costs of having to maintain teacher numbers and what that looks like for children and young people in schools where that is the case?

I have a couple of questions about children’s services. The first is about the Promise. I am interested in the witnesses’ reflections on the practicalities of delivering the local government elements of the Promise in the current financial context. While you are thinking, I point out that a live issue for the committee is the Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill, which obviously has implications for local government, so perhaps you can speak to that a little.

There is a reduction in real terms in the expected net spend on children and families social work services in 2023-24 in comparison with the 2019-20 net spend. What might that reduction look like in practice for children and families services and for the children and families who use those services?

That is interesting. Does Kirsty Flanagan have any comments on that?

You spoke about Glasgow City Council reducing its education budget. I know that there are other local authorities that have protected the education budget, even throughout these really challenging times. It would be good to hear what, within education, the money could be invested in and what that would look like for children and young people in the education system. To go back to the Verity house agreement and the priorities for us in relation to that, it would be interesting to hear your reflections on where that money might be invested and how that would benefit children and young people.

Thank you. That is helpful.

Generally, the pay of teachers and local government employees is subject to negotiations between COSLA, local authorities and trade unions. However, in recent years, the Scottish Government has stepped in to fund uplifts in pay. What role is there for the Scottish Government in relation to the pay of local authority workers?