Chamber and committees

I want to come back on that briefly. You have said that the improvement plans are drawn up a year in advance. Obviously those plans are prepared without knowing which children will be in the classroom and what their needs are. Is that right?

Okay.

The Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill will play an important part in keeping the Promise. As Parliament moves forward and looks to further improve the bill at stage 3, does the First Minister agree that, despite the complexity of doing so, it is crucial that, in reforming the care and justice system, we uphold and promote the rights of all children, whether they are in direct contact with the system as witnesses, victims or perpetrators or are impacted because of a family member?

I ask for clarity—my question might be about my memory of the evidence. I am not entirely clear that we took substantial evidence that there is a prevailing policy to place children in proximity to their local authority area. Will you expand on that? I do not quite recall that being the case.

I get that there will be fluctuating numbers of hearings and volunteers needed for those hearings. How does the Government reassure itself that things are working as they should be, that hearings are not being delayed and that there is enough capacity? What mechanism is used to do that at the moment?

Do you mean that the on-going dialogue with the system is how the Government is reassured?

Good morning. I thank the witnesses for being with us.

When I heard Justina Murray talk about the 11,000 people lost to alcohol, I thought about the families and children around them, so I will ask about them. I hear the frustration that we are just talking about minimum unit pricing; that is the legislation that we are scrutinising, but feel free to add any extra comments.

My questions are for Justina Murray and Tracey McFall, because I think that they will have rich evidence from families. The Public Health Scotland evaluation report says that researchers

“felt unable to determine if”

minimum unit alcohol pricing

“had positive or negative impact on the lives of children and young people affected by”

parental drinking, and it says that

“there was no evidence of change in any parenting outcomes”.

I think that we probably all intuitively understand the harm that drinking causes, but could you say a bit about the impact on children and families?

We are carrying out post-legislative—that is my least favourite word to say, because I find it difficult to do so—scrutiny, but, when legislation moves through the Parliament, we often talk about the other things that are needed. I am sure that, when the Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) (Scotland) Bill was being considered in 2012, which was a bit before my time in the Parliament, the need for treatment and additional interventions would have been discussed. Has there been progress on those things?

Thank you.

The first thing that I want to say to colleagues is that it is not just the Government that gets to decide how legislation is formed. Any round table must involve the families—it absolutely must. Victims’ organisations will be more than happy to share contributions, but the issue will be too easily dismissed if the victims’ families are not there. Therefore, I urge that the families be there.

We could probably go round in circles talking about the media stuff, but I make the point that it is not all media outlets that report in detail the harms that have happened to children. Many behave responsibly. Legislation would create an even playing field for them to continue to behave in a responsible manner.

I do not accept that the fact that there are international examples of where things have not worked out is a reason not to legislate. I think that that is a gift, because it shows us what not to do. We can learn from that. Therefore, I do not accept that argument.

This is quite challenging because, to be frank, I have not heard a sense of urgency from the minister, and I feel that colleagues around the table are getting restless. I say to them, to the families who might be watching and to the victims’ organisations that have worked with them that I will take what the Government has said in good faith and will not press amendment 124 or move my other amendments. I also urge colleagues not to press amendment 124 or to move my other amendments.

However, we will not stop the campaign for the proposed changes or the awareness raising. If progress is not made, I will bring my amendments back at stage 3, because minds need to be sharpened and they need to be focused on the action that needs to be taken.

I appreciate the complexities. This is not easy—nothing that is worth doing is easy—but there are children who are being harmed by our legislation. The Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill is absolutely the right place to make sure that the rights of children who are involved in our care and justice system are upheld and championed.