Chamber and committees

I congratulate the Education, Children and Young People Committee’s convener on securing the debate and the committee on being true to its word and keeping a sustained focus on the experiences of children and young people with additional support for learning needs.

As a former member of the committee who was involved in its work in this area, I thank the children and young people and their adults who shared their experiences with us. The committee was fortunate to hear directly from the inclusion ambassadors, who were supported by Children in Scotland, on how it feels when their school gets support right. I appreciated how openly and generously they spoke of their experience as pupils with additional support needs, and their experience of what works and what could be made better.

It feels right to share what they said with members. They told the committee that pupils feel really good when the support that is provided is correct and suits their needs. They let us know that it was hard to understand when somebody does not give them the support that they need, and they highlighted that it does not work well when there are not enough support staff to cope with the number of pupils who need support, which can lead to pupils feeling frustrated. That brings us back to the point that Willie Rennie made about support staff being moved around. Every time that that happens, a young person misses out, as a result of a support staff member being moved elsewhere.

As I have said, the committee met young people, the inclusion ambassadors and parents, carers and teachers in informal participation sessions to ensure that it heard directly from people with personal experience so that it could get a handle on the issues that they faced. The committee was extremely concerned by what it heard about people’s negative personal experiences of ASL provision, the implementation of the presumption of mainstreaming and the detrimental impact that that has had on some pupils with ASN and on their parents or carers, teachers and support staff.

It is important to say that the committee recognised the excellent work that was being done by teachers and support staff, but it was extremely concerned to hear about the pressures that they faced, which left them feeling overwhelmed and burned out. The issue of resource was a frequent theme, not only in relation to the number of staff and assistants who are available to support children, but when it comes to providing the flexibility to allow staff the time for on-going training and reflection on practice.

Parents often described the exhaustion that they felt in their fight to navigate systems in order to ensure that their children had the education that they were entitled to. There is no doubt in my mind that a gap exists between the legislation and policy that we have—and which are excellent—and what children and young people are experiencing. The strength of feeling from the committee’s report should be really clear: when a cross-party committee’s report uses words such as “intolerable”, the Government needs to take notice.

I will share an example of a bit of work from my local authority area. I had the pleasure of helping to facilitate discussions and actions between ASN support Ayrshire, which is a parents group, and North Ayrshire Council. ASN support Ayrshire had reached out to me, with parents expressing their struggle to access support for their children—support to which, again, they were entitled—and feeling that their opinions were not being valued, that they were not being heard by schools and that communications were becoming really challenging.

When I raised the issue with the local authority, it was very open to meeting and discussing things. I and a representative from ASN support Ayrshire, the executive manager for inclusion and child protection, and the principal educational psychologist had productive discussions at which training, parental engagement, communication, the E19 process, masking and areas of excellent practice were all talked about.

A suggested improvement was accepted to the E19 process with regard to parents being able to see the report submitted to the inclusion group and ensuring that all parents were aware that they could submit a statement and any additional information that they felt was pertinent. The council shared its proposed new literature with the ASN support network for its feedback, and monthly meetings and on-going collaboration are planned.

The committee’s report states that

“improvements can be made to current practice, without incurring additional expenditure”.

What I have just described is quite a good example of that. I am hopeful that those actions will make a difference to how parents experience their journey with children through the education system.

The committee’s report also recognises that

“where systems need to improve it is as important to understand where things are working as well as where there are challenges.”

The importance of that point, as we move forward, is that, where an implementation gap exists and people are being failed, despite good policy and perhaps world-leading legislation, more legislation and structural change might not be what is required to make things better for people. We have to be vigilant that we, in this place, are not simply labelling whole systems as broken.

In this and in previous committee inquiries, it has been clear that some of the best practice and results for children and young people were more about culture than about legislation. There is some learning in that for all of us and for children and young people in Scotland, and it is a lesson that we really need to learn quickly.

Good morning to the witnesses. Thanks for being with us. I will come back to Keir Greenaway on one of the questions that Tess White asked. I hear you loud and clear about union representation on the board. She asked what difference that could make to service users. I appreciate that, as a union rep, you are here to talk about pay and conditions for the workforce, but what difference could having front-line workers represented on the board make to service users?

Good morning and thank you for your evidence so far. I will go back to Stephen Morgan’s remark about social work getting its voice back. Sometimes when I am listening to discussions such as these, I think that the voices of service users can go adrift. It would be helpful for the committee to understand what it means for our citizens when there are structural barriers in the way, such as when departments are separate, because people’s lives do not fall into boxes of children’s services, justice services, or housing services, for example. Could you talk a bit more about that? What would a social worker do for an individual when they have a voice and are able to link everything up?

Thank you—that is helpful.

On a point of clarity, you said that the GMB had withdrawn support for the bill. Had it ever formally supported the bill in its form as a bill? I appreciate that you support a national care service.

Frank Reilly, do you have any reflections on the point about structure getting in the way, with regard to whether different parts of the system are within or outwith the existing partnerships?

Do other panel members have comments on the importance of having a union voice at the board?

Ensuring that people’s homes are promptly adapted to meet their needs is a crucial part of avoiding unnecessary hospital stays. In a number of cases, my constituents have been let down and discharged to home environments that did not offer them dignity in their personal hygiene needs, or safe mobility. We can intuitively understand the negative impact of that on their rehabilitation—and that it might even cause readmission to hospital. What action will the Scottish Government take to ensure that the NHS, local authorities and housing associations fulfil their obligations to my constituents in that regard?

To ask the Scottish Government how it plans to invest in supporting youth culture in the Cunninghame South constituency. (S6O-03719)

I welcome the fact that the Scottish Government is increasing funding for culture. Arts and culture are integral parts of a thriving community. This summer, I had the pleasure of visiting Impact Arts, where I saw at first hand the vital work that it does to provide artistic opportunities for young people, the positive impact that it has had on their wellbeing and the prospects that it opens up to them.

Does the cabinet secretary agree that money invested by the Scottish Government through Creative Scotland should be distributed across the country for the benefit of all, to ensure that the arts are developed for young people outside our main cities?