Chamber and committees

Good morning. I remind the committee that I am a member of the RMT parliamentary group.

We have heard a little today and in writing about the impact that the unreliability issues are having on front-line staff—on your members. Just for the record, will you elaborate on that? What does it mean day to day for front-line staff in each of your unions when the travelling public “get upset”, as Gordon Martin put it?

Before I move on to my next question and explore some of the short, medium and long-term solutions, I have to say that you and Gordon Martin have painted quite a bleak picture that sounds very stressful and potentially very dangerous for the workers whom you represent. My understanding is that we have a shortage of seafarers, but you have just described threats of violence, including threats to run over people with cars. No one should have to put up with that. Are people leaving the sector as a result? Is it making it harder to retain people? You have said that people are very proud of their work, but how much more can they put up with?

It was helpful to get those comments on the record, given the submissions that have been made. Thank you, convener.

I am sure that you will agree that Karen McKeown is a hard act to follow, and I want to thank her for the time and effort that she puts into this. Karen mentioned some of the FOI requests that she submitted, particularly to NHS Lanarkshire. I have to admit that, when I saw some of the answers and the detail of some of the long waiting times, I said that we needed to go back to ask whether the figures were correct or whether they had not understood the question. Therefore, what we see in black and white is frightening.

Through the work that she does locally with others with lived experience and through voluntary work, Karen speaks to a wide range of people. She has also been very fair in trying to identify where there has been progress. The inclusion in the strategy of addiction and inequalities is good. Two years ago, we met the former Minister for Mental Health, who explained, “Ah, the addiction side—that’s for my public health colleagues,” so there was fragmentation in the approach. There is now a better understanding that we need a holistic approach. However, as we have heard from Karen and in written submissions from, I think, the Royal College of Psychiatrists and others, the capacity is just not there.

Therefore, if the review is going to happen, it needs to look at the real-terms resource and the backlog that we face in dealing with the challenges. There was an urgent question in Parliament last night about accident and emergency waiting times. Those figures give a good window into what is happening in the entire system. NHS Lanarkshire, which we have talked about today, has reached an all-time record low in dealing with those waiting times.

Karen is absolutely right that, for people who are in crisis, being in that A and E environment is not suitable. In fact, it can make everything worse and put them more at risk. Where are the trauma-informed services? Where are the quiet spaces? I would like to hear more from Police Scotland colleagues. I know from speaking to police officers on the front line in my region that they feel the pressure. Some good training has been rolled out across police and other front-line services, but that pressure is another sign that the system is not working.

We know how hard it is to get face-to-face contact in primary care—not just with general practitioners but with others. We know about the role of community pharmacists and advanced nurse practitioners. I do not doubt the good intentions of the Scottish Government and those working at a high level to run our health services. However, we need to factor in the backlog and the whole recovery agenda—we need to create that space in order to have an honest, independent look at what is happening.

Karen touched on the need for education, prevention and early intervention. Convener, you are absolutely right to talk about the journey that we have been on in this country to try to destigmatise mental health issues and to make it easier to have those conversations. However, we must also recognise that there is a spectrum, and Karen is right to say that, for someone who has low mood that is very temporary or low-level anxiety, some of the apps and signposting that we know about are probably appropriate.

However, for other people with other mental health conditions that do not always get the attention and understanding that they need, that is not helpful. In fact, it is probably counterproductive. Therefore, it is really great that the committee has invited Karen today. I notice that it is not normal practice, but I think that it shows that, in the Parliament, all members understand that. Sadly, the experience of Karen and Luke will resonate, because we all know constituents who have been through similar experiences and tragedies. I just want to back up everything that Karen has said.

I know that in Parliament we struggle to find the capacity in our committees and in the chamber to give issues the time that they deserve. I hope that when the committee hears from the cabinet secretary or the minister—I think that it will be the cabinet secretary—the Government will not be defensive.

I know Karen very well—we have been working together for a few years now. All the constituents who come to me are not looking for reform out of anger and are not looking to blame people. Karen spoke with great affection for the staff—those on the front line who are trying to hold it together—and it is often their mental health that suffers.

Therefore, we owe it to everyone in Scotland, including the workforce, to really step back from this, so I hope that the Government will not be defensive. I think that we all recognise that there are very good intentions, but there is a gap between the high-level strategy and policy and the actual resource and experience on the ground. We know that we have to train the workforce, but when are people getting the time to do that, right now?

Alexander Stewart mentioned a couple of the relevant reports and strategies—that work is very welcome and we have been speaking about it a lot. I did not print it off because it ran to something like 900 pages, but the Scottish Mental Health Law Review report is a massive document—I think that the summary was about 113 pages. That tells you that the issue is complex. There are so many layers to it.

However, to go back to where Karen started, Luke did not want to die; he wanted to live. He loved his family; he loved Karen; he loved his children. He wanted to live. There are so many other families that carry that in their hearts, so suicide prevention work is important. It is also about making sure that everyone can live well and live their best life, and that our NHS continues to be the success story that we all want it to be. I will end by saying that I fully support Karen. I thank the committee again for all its work on the petition.

I will move on to another question. Are there any routes where enhanced air services or fixed links might be a realistic alternative to ferries or might at least enhance ferry service provision?

I will go to Martin Johnson first because—in addition to the submissions—I am aware of activity in the press in the past 24 hours, where I understand that Highlands and Islands Enterprise has suggested that

“fed-up islanders should turn to air travel”

and has made a push for cheaper flights. I want to give you the chance to expand on that, because there has been a bit of media coverage. Are things so bad that your organisation has to suggest sustainable aviation as an alternative?

Before I hand back to the convener, I have another question for Rob. Martin Johnson mentioned a couple of times that some of the ferries are more than 30 years old. From a VisitScotland perspective, what impression does that make on people who are here for tourism or are travelling within Scotland? What feedback do you hear about the ferries?

That is great; thank you for that.

Peter and Rob, do you have anything to add about the role of fixed links and what sustainable aviation might look like as part of the conversation?

Thank you for your further explanation of the role that fixed links could play. Does Highlands and Islands Enterprise have any estimates of or data on the potential economic impact of the construction of the type of links that you mentioned? If so, could you share that with the committee later?

Rob, you talked about your experience of infrastructure-led projects, which it is clear that you are passionate about. You may be aware that the Scottish Government recently published research that it commissioned to examine how Japan tackled island depopulation. Japan switched from infrastructure-led projects to a focus on tourism-led projects and then went back to infrastructure. You talked about the importance of infrastructure. What else could the Scottish Government do?

Good morning. We have already heard about some of the short and long-term challenges for people and business. Do your organisations have concerns that the current level of ferry service provision might be fuelling depopulation in island and rural communities? If so, can you identify where that is happening and what needs to change to reverse any such trends? That question is for Martin Johnson in the first instance.