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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. I will look at the recommendations that were made in the report from last year, which are covered in appendix 3 of the report from this year. It is a summation of progress that has been made against the recommendations from the 2022 report, which are grouped into nine broad areas. The Auditor General’s assessment describes that some progress against the recommendations has been made in some areas, but that there has been only limited progress in others and some where no progress was made. How do you respond to that summation in appendix 3 of this year’s report?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Thanks for that. We would be interested in being sent the link, so that we can look at that work.

One other thing of interest is the asset management and capital investment strategy, which I think is due for publication. Has it been published? Is there a date for its publication?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

But is your cost estimate likely to break the £1 billion barrier?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

On that note, I will draw this morning’s session to a close. Caroline Lamb, I thank you for answering the questions that we have put to you. John Burns and Richard McCallum, I thank you, too, for your input.

There were a couple of areas that we did not quite get to, so we might write to you with some follow-up questions. You have also committed to giving us some information that you were not able to provide in oral evidence this morning.

I thank you very much indeed, and I draw the public part of this morning’s committee session to a close.

10:48 Meeting continued in private until 11:25.  

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Why are you so resistant to doing that? Over a year ago, you were sat there and you and I had an exchange about the Auditor General’s recommendation to produce annual reports that would give greater transparency and clarity about whether progress was being made. You said—rather dismissively, I think—that you were not really interested in what you described as “a dry annual report.” Why do you have such resistance to the idea of openly publishing an annual summary of progress being made or not?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

You understand why, to us as the Public Audit Committee, it is unsatisfactory that, in this year’s report, the Auditor General had to repeat a recommendation. On the recommendation to

“Publish annual progress updates on the reform of services”,

under the heading “Limited progress”, he said:

“We repeat the recommendation in this report.”

Reform is the watchword of the new Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, so why have you not come up with the standard of reporting that the Auditor General thinks is required?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

On the 2023 report, the Auditor General, in a fairly stark summary, said that there was

“no single overall vision for how health services will look in future.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 21 March 2024; c 36.]

When I raised that with the then First Minister at a meeting of the Conveners Group in the Parliament, he said:

“I respectfully disagree with the Auditor General on that point”.

Where do you stand on that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. Finally, I will take you back to the cabinet secretary’s vision and therefore, I presume, to the Government’s vision. The cabinet secretary told Parliament that he had outlined his vision to Cabinet colleagues before he made his statement. He also spoke about the establishment of ministerial task forces, expert reference groups and stakeholder advisory groups. What are they going to do?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. I invite Graham Simpson to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. I am not sure that I entirely understand that, but that is probably a reflection on me and not you, director general.