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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 1 May 2025
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Displaying 3042 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 10th meeting in 2025 of the Public Audit Committee. This morning, we have received apologies from the deputy convener, Jamie Greene.

Under agenda item 1, do committee members agree to take items 3 and 4 in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed. In your opening statement, you touched on the legislative framework, which the briefing also explores. Twenty years after the Education (Additional Support for Learning) (Scotland) Act 2004, we had the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (Incorporation) (Scotland) Act 2024, which also has a bearing on the provision of such services. Can you elaborate a bit more on how the legal framework has influenced what has happened over the past two decades?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

The briefing covers the establishment of an ASL project board, which I think brings together the Scottish Government and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, presumably to address some of the gaps and deficiencies and to pull things together so that there is not just the confederation of local data inputs that Alison Cumming described but something that has a broad framework that allows for consistency and, therefore, a national perspective on where we need to target resources. Stephen, I will bring you in on that point and we might return to it later.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

During this morning, we might have come up with some extra action points for the ASL project board. We will see whether we have much influence over it.

On that note, I thank you all very much for your evidence. It has been very informative on the back of what is a very clear briefing that sets out the challenges that we face, includes some of the historical perspective and then turns to what we need to do now, with some urgency.

Thank you, Auditor General, for the evidence that you have provided. I also thank Yoshiko Gibo and Alison Cumming from Audit Scotland and Ruth MacLeod from the Accounts Commission for their input. It has been a very useful session for us, and we will need to decide what next steps we might want to take in further pursuit of evidence around the points that you raise in the briefing.

11:10 Meeting continued in private until 11:37.  

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

That might be an issue for further inquiry.

I invite Colin Beattie to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

It was really useful to get that on the record. It also seems to me that you are saying that there is a real issue with transparency, and that is a matter of real importance to us, as the Public Audit Committee. If we cannot trace where the money is going and how effectively it is being applied, it becomes quite difficult to make any informed, evidence-based assessment of what is and is not working.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

I said earlier that Stuart McMillan had some more questions to put to you. Now that we are getting into the last lap, Stuart, I will pass over to you.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

I want to drill into that a little bit. Paragraph 35 states that the Scottish Government has provided £15 million per annum, which is specific funding that is given to all councils for ASL provision. You gave a bit of context to that in your answers to Graham Simpson. However, when I read the briefing, I am looking at graphs that tell me about an 800 per cent rise in demand and your concerns about the outcomes for pupils who require additional support for learning. Against that backdrop, I am reading that £15 million per annum, which is identifiable expenditure for all councils since 2021, represents

“a 15 per cent real-terms decrease.”

Am I reading that correctly?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

I always make the point in these discussions that children are only eight, 12 or 15 once, so if we do not get it right now, there is no point in coming back in three years and saying that these are our conclusions and recommendations, because it is too late for that cohort of young people.

I invite Stuart McMillan to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you. We will explore the issues around the gaps in the data more over the course of the morning.

I have a question about SEEMiS, the education management information system that is mentioned in the briefing. It struck me that some of the definitions are quite broad. One pupil in four needs additional support for learning due to

“social, emotional and behavioural difficulties”,

and there is a calculation that around 10 per cent of pupils require ASL for “other” needs, without it being specified what those needs are.

How does having such broad definitions and uncategorised groups in the system affect the ability to target, plan and resource properly to affect the outcomes, which is what we are interested in?