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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 17 January 2026
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Displaying 3682 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Decisions on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 5 March 2025

Richard Leonard

I welcome everyone to the eighth meeting in 2025 of the Public Audit Committee. Under agenda item 1, do committee members agree to take items 4, 5 and 6 in private this morning?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and public reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 March 2025

Richard Leonard

I am going to move swiftly along. I invite Stuart McMillan to put some questions to you on public service reform.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and public reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Graham Simpson, do you have a final question?

Public Audit Committee

Decisions on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 5 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Under agenda item 2, do committee members agree to take our next meeting, on Wednesday 12 March, in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and public reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 March 2025

Richard Leonard

The main item of business on our agenda this morning is further consideration of the report by the Auditor General “Fiscal sustainability and public sector reform in Scotland”. I am pleased to welcome our four witnesses, who join us in the committee room. We are joined by the permanent secretary, John-Paul Marks—good morning, permanent secretary. Alongside the permanent secretary, we have the director general strategy and external affairs, Joe Griffin, and the director general corporate, Lesley Fraser. We are also pleased to welcome back the director general Scottish exchequer, Alyson Stafford.

We have a number of questions to put to you on the report, following the evidence session that we had with the Auditor General before Christmas. However, before we get to those questions, I invite the permanent secretary to make an opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and public reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 March 2025

Richard Leonard

If you will forgive me for saying so, “Less is more” also applies to some of the answers that we have been getting. We want concise responses to the questions that we have put to you and that we are going to put to you. That there are 33,000 words in the assessments is all very well, but when it comes to decisions that are being made about the delivery of public services, it is not at all clear to us on the evidence that we have taken—not just on the report that is before us but in general—whether there is a granular analysis of the difference that will be made to, for example, groups that are further away from getting access to public services.

We will review the 33,000 words in due course, but I think—

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and public reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 March 2025

Richard Leonard

The deputy convener, Jamie Greene, will put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and public reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed. On that note, permanent secretary, I thank you, Lesley Fraser, Joe Griffin and Alyson Stafford for your evidence this morning. In one or two areas, you are going to supply us with a little bit more information, which we would very much welcome, as well as looking forward to the medium-term financial strategy and the accompanying delivery report; I am sure that the committee and the Parliament as a whole will scrutinise and analyse that when it is produced. Thank you very much for your input this morning.

Permanent secretary, we wish you very well for the future. We may even see you again before the committee in your new role—who knows? Thank you for the co-operative way in which you have engaged with the committee since you arrived three years ago.

I move the meeting into private session.

11:41 Meeting continued in private until 12:12.  

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and public reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 March 2025

Richard Leonard

I will move things along now. I invite Colin Beattie to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and public reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Fifty-five thousand. I am sorry—less is more, as I keep saying. I am trying to take you at your word. We might get it down to 11,000 before the end of the meeting.

My point is that the fact that there are lots of words does not answer the point that is made both in the report and in some of the other evidence that has been presented to us, which is that insufficient attention is paid at the ground level—not as a retrospective add-on—to budget decisions, which is what we are speaking about in this context, and how they affect different groups in society differently.

We might return to some of those themes, but I will move on and invite Graham Simpson to put some questions to you.