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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. I will press straight on and invite the deputy convener to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thanks. That would be helpful.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Great. I will turn to what you have said about progress on public service reform. There is a certain clarity in what you have said about that in the section 23 report. You are fairly blunt after paragraph 68 in saying:

“The Scottish Government does not know what savings will result from reform, or what reform efforts will cost”.

You also say that

“The Scottish Government’s governance arrangements for reform were ineffective and have recently changed”

and that

“The Scottish Government is not providing effective leadership on reform”.

In paragraph 87, you say that

“the impact on outcomes is not currently considered or monitored as part of the reform process”,

so it is not considered at all and neither is it monitored.

Those are fairly fundamental criticisms of the Scottish Government’s approach to public service reform, are they not?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

You highlight a familiar theme for the Public Audit Committee and in your reports: what is, to all intents and purposes, an implementation gap. There is a stated Government ambition, but delivery on the ground does not match up with that. That is the summation of what you are saying in the report, is it not?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Yes. A view has been expressed in the past that equality impact assessments are part of the red tape that we need to get rid of. Is it your understanding that the Government’s position is that it thinks that it is important that there are equality and human rights impact assessments of changes?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thanks very much. That is very helpful. Those are all my questions, but Graham Simpson has a final one to put to you.

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 31st meeting in 2024 of the Public Audit Committee. Agenda item 1 is for the committee to decide whether to take agenda items 3 and 4 in private. Are we all agreed to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you. We might return to that theme a bit later on.

Colin Beattie has some questions to put to you, so I will hand over to him.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed for that opening statement, and for touching on yesterday’s budget. I invite Graham Simpson to put some questions to you now: he may well start with yesterday’s budget. [Laughter.]

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

As I read it, the Government’s strategy is that it is opposed to a top-down approach, as it describes it, which is an interesting idea. However, I think that your conclusion is that that leaves a bit of a vacuum and a lack of leadership. Would that be a fair assessment?