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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I do not think that “speeding up” and that sentence really fit. Not for the first time, the committee is hearing about a structure that has been established that is not really meeting, which rather belies the priority that it is being afforded, I would have thought. Are the minutes of the board published?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you. I have a couple of final questions and I think that Graham Simpson also wants to come in. I will bring him in shortly, but I want to touch on a couple of things. We think that it is important to get your answers to these questions on the record.

One of the weaknesses that you cite is the way in which equalities and human rights impact assessments are dealt with and whether or not they are built into the beginning of decisions about public service reform. Do you want to outline for us how you think that decision making is being enacted and whether or not equality and human rights impact assessments are part of that or an afterthought or are not given sufficient priority at all?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

One of the things that really struck me was what you say a couple of paragraphs later. You say that, despite the Scottish Government contacting public bodies three times since January 2023 to assess their ability to carry out reform,

“These requests did not generate concrete information on the quantity, quality or anticipated impact of public bodies’ collective work on reform.”

Again, that is a fairly basic requirement, is it not? What is your understanding of the reason why the requests did not elicit any useful answers from the public bodies that the Government spoke to three times?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Again, you reference in the report that there is a lack of data on workforce, estates and so on. I know that it is not completely analogous and I may be stretching things a little bit, but Scottish Canals was in front of us a couple of years ago, in consecutive years, because it failed to carry out a proper asset audit to comply with the standards expected. Yet, in a sense, in your report you are saying that the Scottish Government does not know what assets and what estate it has, never mind the valuation of it. There appear to be big gaps in information here.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

You will be delighted to learn that I have only one budget-related question for you before I move on to some other final areas.

Earlier, you touched on the ScotWind leasing revenues. Yesterday, it was announced that over £300 million of those revenues will be spent on their intended purpose, which, presumably, is reinvestment in the green agenda, renewables and so on. However, in exhibit 5 of your report, you identify that the revenue raised from that was not £300 million, but £756 million. Therefore, my question is this: what is your sense of where the rest of the money has gone? Has it been spent as part of general in-year expenditure, or has it been earmarked for something else in the future?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I am sorry, but I was never very good at arithmetic. You mentioned £200 million and £460 million, but the figure in the report is £756 million. Is there a missing £100 million somewhere?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. That brings to an end this evidence session. Thank you, Auditor General, for your time and input. I also thank Carole Grant, Fiona Diggle and Richard Robinson for their contributions. It has been greatly appreciated and you have set a useful platform for us upon which we may stand and ask some questions of the Scottish Government. Again, thank you very much indeed for your evidence.

I move the meeting into private session.

10:48 Meeting continued in private until 11:14.  

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Forgive me, these are matters that we will probably raise with the Scottish Government, but to help us to understand what the answer might be, we have some questions that we are putting to you.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Our main item is agenda item 2, which is consideration of the section 23 report “Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”, which has been produced by the Auditor General for Scotland. I am very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning. We have Stephen Boyle, the Auditor General, who is joined from Audit Scotland by Carole Grant, audit director; Fiona Diggle, audit manager; and Richard Robinson, senior manager.

As usual, Auditor General, we have some questions to put to you, but before we get to those, I invite you to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

A couple of weeks ago, the committee took evidence on digital exclusion, which you produced a report on several months ago. I would have thought that, if a public body had been asked by the Scottish Government three times to give evidence of the action that it was taking to implement public service reform, it would have at least looked at digitalisation or a change in the way that services are delivered, whether we agree with that or not. I would have thought that that would be an obvious go-to place for lots of the public bodies that were asked for information about what they were doing to reform the services that they provide.