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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I think that that is right. That was a significant part of last week’s budget announcement.

I want to move on to another area. I am looking at exhibit 7 in the report that we are considering today, which is a bar chart that shows the annual unitary charges that are payable under public-private partnership contracts. I was quite surprised that that chart stretches all the way to 2045-46. In other words, I thought that we had moved away from the model of private finance initiatives and public-private partnerships into a new age, in which we were no longer liable for the big unitary costs that that model involves, but it looks as though those costs are on-going.

You can keep me right on this, but I think that the normal lifetime of a PFI or PPP contract is about 25 or 30 years. If the expiry date is 2045, I presume that we are talking about capital projects that were commissioned under that form of financing fairly recently.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

We have just a few minutes left, but there is time for a couple of questions from the deputy convener to finish the session by looking at a couple of other aspects of operational performance.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I will draw the evidence session to a close at that point. In doing so, I thank the Auditor General very much for the evidence that he has given us. I also thank Carol Calder, Leigh Johnston and Bernie Milligan for their input. We have quite a lot to think about and we need to consider what our next steps might be. Thank you very much once again for your time and input.

I now move the committee into private session.

11:00 Meeting continued in private until 11:35.  

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. I will begin with a minor technical question. You came before the committee to give evidence in March this year, and you have changed the publication date for your latest report, so it seems that the cycle of your reporting on the financial state and operational performance of the national health service in Scotland has changed. Does that mean that you will revert to publishing your reports every 12 months around this time of year?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Good morning, and welcome to the 32nd meeting in 2024 of the Public Audit Committee. The first agenda item is a decision on whether to take agenda items 3, 4 and 5 in private. Do members agree to do so?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

The second agenda item is consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s section 23 report “NHS in Scotland 2024”, which is a finance and performance report. I am pleased to welcome Stephen Boyle, the Auditor General, to this morning’s meeting. He is joined by the following colleagues from Audit Scotland: Carol Calder, audit director; Leigh Johnston, senior manager; and Bernie Milligan, audit manager.

We have a wide range of questions on your wide-ranging report, Auditor General. Before we get to those questions, I invite you to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you, Graham. I invite Colin Beattie to continue with some questions on the theme of financial performance.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Auditor General, I thank you for resisting the temptation, which members of the committee have put your way several times, to offer clinical judgments. I really do not think that it is fair to ask you to make those judgments.

One area that you are more comfortable and qualified to talk about is highlighted in paragraph 100 of today’s report. That is a recent report by the chief medical officer that talks about the need to focus on

“equity, prevention and early intervention”.

I recall that, in the report, “Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”, on which we considered evidence last week, you once again used, as a touchstone, the Christie report, which you said had “remarkable longevity” and “ongoing relevance”. Those themes are captured in the chief medical officer’s assessment, too.

We have spoken a lot this morning about reforms to the NHS, but there is a wider palette of reform—perhaps social and even economic—that we might need to look at if we are to see a shift in the provision of health services and how we best improve public health in Scotland.

10:15  

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I have a few more questions on that, but I am conscious of the time, so I invite James Dornan, who joins us via videolink, to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. You also mention governance arrangements in the report and say that a new PSR board has been established. Can you tell us a bit more about that? Who is on it? What are its terms of reference? What is its plan of action?