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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you. Again, that will be helpful in informing our decision making today, which, after all, is to decide whether or not to agree your budget.

There is a second point that I want to make, following the questions that Mark Ruskell asked. An old trade union organiser thought went through my head—do any of the staff who you employ work on contracts that provide for them to be paid overtime?

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Richard Leonard

There is some kind of governance system that has oversight.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I am glad to hear it.

I will move on from staffing issues to other areas. In your proposal document, there is a section headed “Other operating costs”. In that section, you itemise what you call the “main areas of movement”—by “movement”, I think that you mean “increase”. I want to probe some of the areas that you have highlighted.

You talk about “Resource system implementation”. Forgive me if you covered this earlier, with a different descriptor, but could you perhaps tell us a little bit more about what that work is and how it is being delivered? Is it being delivered in-house? Is it externalised? Are you bringing in people to do that through an outsourced model? If you could begin by telling us what it is, that would be helpful.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay, and you have systems in place to make sure that it is delivering value for money.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Let me move on to another area that crops up in the “Other operating costs” section of your proposal, which is an expectation that, certainly compared to two years ago, you are looking at a significant increase in legal fees. Can you explain the occasions that Audit Scotland requires to procure legal support externally? What areas do you take legal advice on?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you for clarifying that.

Your report includes a summary of progress against some of your recommendations from previous years’ reports. Some of the recommendations that you made in previous years are repeated this year. Do you think that sufficient progress is being made in the areas that you have highlighted as being important for improving the performance of the national health service in Scotland?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Let me pick up that theme. In your evidence to us last week, you referred to your concern about the lack of a medium-term financial strategy, which was also expressed by the Institute for Fiscal Studies and other bodies. In your report this week, you refer to there being insufficient clarity about a medium-term financial plan for the NHS and say that we are still awaiting an NHS capital investment and asset management strategy—so some quite important parts of the framework do not exist. I go back to my earlier point: the calls that you have made in previous reports still do not appear to have been met.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I will now bring in Graham Simpson, who wants to continue on some of the themes introduced by the deputy convener.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. I invite Jamie Greene to come in.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

One area of capital spending that has previously come under scrutiny by the committee relates to the programme of investment in national treatment centres. When the chief executive of NHS Scotland was before us in June this year, we asked her about that. She sent us correspondence in which she confirmed that the plan for six national treatment centres had gone from originally costing £200 million to costing more than that. The running total at that time—summer this year—was £827 million, which represents a quadrupling of the cost. Are you in a position to give us an update on where we are with the national treatment centres investment programme?