Skip to main content
Loading…

Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

Filter your results Hide all filters

Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 July 2025
Select which types of business to include


Select level of detail in results

Displaying 3298 contributions

|

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 22 January 2025

Richard Leonard

Colin Beattie has more questions on the management of the finances.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 22 January 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you. I note that you have asked the committee six questions. We will endeavour to come up with our answers to your questions at some point. We recognise that, in general, the report is a step forward and we appreciate the opportunity that you have given us to consider it in more detail and come back to you with ideas about where we think there are gaps in it. Local government pension schemes, for example, are not included—that would be a useful area to look at.

I am conscious of the time and I want to move things on. I will do that by way of asking Stuart McMillan to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 22 January 2025

Richard Leonard

I will move things along and invite Graham Simpson to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 22 January 2025

Richard Leonard

Okay, but the Auditor General told us on 7 November that it

“remains a matter of concern”.—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 7 November 2024; c 21.]

Again, that is probably putting it mildly.

We are nearly at the end of our time, but the deputy convener has one final question to put to you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 22 January 2025

Richard Leonard

The committee welcomes that advance. Whether it meets the standard of transparency that we are looking for will depend on how much is redacted and how much you are able to share with us. We will see the outcomes in the course of the next few weeks, and I am sure that we will have further conversations with you about that.

I take you back to my initial question. I had an exchange with the First Minister about the transparency review at the Conveners Group in September, in which part of his response was, “Yes, we’re learning lessons from the Covid inquiry and so on.” Some of our concerns in this area stem from the ferries contracts—not only how those contracts were awarded, but the extent to which we were able to get to the bottom of how they were awarded and who was involved. The committee had concerns about whether proper recording of ministerial meetings took place. There were questions about whether special advisers constituted civil servants and where decisions were made. For example, the decisions to award the contract to Ferguson Marine Engineering Ltd and those on the two loans worth £45 million did not go to the Cabinet.

We thought that the transparency review would go much broader than the strategic commercial assets division. That is also what I took from what the First Minister said in the exchange that I had with him. Could you clarify that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 22 January 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you for clearing that up; it is helpful to get that on the record.

The committee identified a particular concern. During the course of the ferries inquiry, we uncovered the fact that Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd had been directed by the minister or ministers to award the contract to Ferguson Marine Engineering Ltd—as it was at the time—but that there is no public record of that. Therefore, one of the recommendations that this committee made was that, in instances in which there is a shareholder authorisation—that is, where the Government is the sole shareholder and overrides the board of a non-departmental public body—that should be a matter of record, just as a written authority is a matter of record. Mr Irwin has recently issued a second written authority on the construction of vessel 802—the Glen Rosa.

We think that there is an equivalence there. If the fact that a minister has overridden the judgment of a civil servant ought to be a matter of public record, the fact that a minister has overridden a judgement by the board of a non-departmental public body should also be recorded, in line with the rules that are set out in the Scottish public finance manual.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 22 January 2025

Richard Leonard

That is a very helpful answer.

The deputy convener has some other questions to put to you.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 22 January 2025

Richard Leonard

You sat here exactly 12 months ago and said the same thing. Mr Irwin said:

“the appointment of auditors in the UK is a priority for it.” —[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 18 January 2024; c 39.]

If that is a “priority”, I would hate to see something that was not. There is a real issue here, is there not? In this year’s Scottish consolidated accounts section 22 report, £130 million is the estimate of the exposure of public money. There is public interest in the matter. Why is there not more transparency? Why is more pressure not being brought to bear by the Scottish Government?

The select committee of the House of Commons concluded a couple of years ago that Mr Gupta, who is the sole director,

“fails to fulfil the criteria that we believe should be applied to define a fit and proper person for the purposes of receiving any form of Government support.”

Why do you take a different opinion?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 16 January 2025

Richard Leonard

There are six non-executive directors in the listing in the minutes for 30 May last year.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 16 January 2025

Richard Leonard

Auditor General, would you like to add to that?